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7 Questions Christians Must Ask Before Voting For A Mormon

In the current field of candidates, is Mitt Romney the best person qualified to be President, of the United States? 

I would answer no for several reasons beginning with his flip, flop, flip again inconsistency and political expediency.

However others may disagree with me and trust Romney and look to his money and say he is our man and is our best candidate.  I think Christians can size those things up in different ways.  I am thankful that many, many, Evangelicals are waking up to the idea that Huckabee can win and the poll numbers have shown a mega-shift to Huckabee in recent weeks.  

I believe Mitt is not the best candidate and he is no more electable than Huckabee anymore. 

However, I do not think the above questions are the only questions for me as an Evangelical that I should be asking.  If I am asking myself, would Romney be an okay President?, then I might support him but their are real concerns and some risk.  You know, the flip, flop, flip, again stuff really does concern me.  While attacking Huckabee his tax record is worse than Huckabee although that has not be reported much and Huckabee himself doesn’t attack in his adds like Romney.  On taxes, I am orginaly from Arkansas and I have knowledge of the fact that the “Club for Growth” attacks are largely funded by the Steven’s family in Arkansas who were social moderates.   I do not think the “Club for Growth” attacks on Huckabee are completely accurate and they paint a picture of Huckabee that is incorrect.  I believe the attacks are motivated in part by social moderates who do not like Huckabee’s social conservatism.  So I really believe Huckabee is a better candidate far and wide.  He will be a true Conservative President across the board if elected.

But there are several other questions that I think Evangelicals should ask before supporting Romney for President or any other Mormon for that high office. 

They are these…

#1  Is Mormonism a false cult that decieves people and leads many to hell?

Answer yes!

#2  Is Mormonism evangelistic in that it seeks to grow by making converts to its faith?

Answer yes!  It is aggressively evangelistic and successfully as one of the fastest growing cults in our time.

#3  Does Mormonism seek to confuse people by representing itself as a genuine Christian group.

Answer yes!  They have spent tons of money on add campaigns for this purpose.  I have met many times with Mormon missionaries and their intial talking point is that “we are Christian too”.   I have heard at least once or twice Mitt Romney himself represent Mormonism in interviews as a Christian group.

Mornonism has a major agenda to deceive people by describing itself as a Christian denomination.   They intentionally make less of their differences.  For example, I will take a quote from the news this week regarding something that you have no doubt heard about.  This is a response to a question Gov. Huckabee had asked if Mormonism teaches that Jesus and the Devil are brothers.  Here is the response by the LDS spokeswoman that has run in almost every article I have read about the controversy over Huckabee’s question. 

 We believe, as other Christians believe and as Paul wrote, that God is the father of all,” said the spokeswoman, Kim Farah. “That means that all beings were created by God and are his spirit children. Christ, on the other hand, was the only begotten in the flesh and we worship him as the son of God and the savior of mankind. Satan is the exact opposite of who Christ is and what he stands for.”


The two parts that I have underlined represent false teachings of Mormonism that are put in here as if all “other Christians and Paul” believe and taught these too.  The phrase, “only begotten in the flesh” sounds fine but Mormonism has a completely different take on it than Christians.  They actually teach that Elohim came down and had sex with Mary and that is why Jesus is the ”only begotten”.  See my blog page at Pastors4Huckabeeblog.com to read more or find documentation for this. 

#4  Would the election of Mitt Romney as President be likely used by Mormons in America and worldwide as a point of reference to ascert that Mormonism is a respectable Christian denomination and would Mormon missionaries use a Romney Presidency to advance their own evangelistic attempts at redifining Mormonism and representing their religion in a good light?

Answer yes!  Absolutely, my experience with Mormon missionaries leads me expect them to seek to continue the rouge that Mormonism is really Christian.  They would most definitely point to Mitt Romney -especially if he were a popular President with a good family life- and  would use Romney as a lifestyle witness for their faith.  They could say, “You can have what the President has, here is a book  of Mormon, etc.”

#5  Do I believe that the growth of Mormonism worldwide is harmful?

Answer yes!  Very, it leads people into spiritual darkness with a counterfeit gospel.

#6  Do I value the souls of men and women boys and girls worldwide over my political concerns?

Answer yes!  I love my country very much and am a pashionate conservative, but my countries welfare is only temporal matter.  People being deceived and going to Hell is an eternal matter.  I believe we should put eternal matters over temporal ones.  I cannot in good conscience do anything that I believe would advance a false gospel that would lead others to hell.  Therefore I cannot under any conditions vote for a Mormon for President because I believe it would have that undesirable effect.

#7  Do I believe that voting for a Mormon who prays to a false god and a conterfit Christ, would have any access through prayer to the true God, and do I think prayer matters?

I do not believe that a Mormon praying to his god for help or wisdom has any hope for an answer to his prayer.  I do think answered prayer matters.  To say that answered prayer doesn’t matter is another way of saying that God Himself doesn’t matter.  That a President by his own wisdom can make decisions and not be in need of Divine help.  This idea is unacceptable to me as well.  It is true that we have had Presidents who were lost and did not have their prayers for wisdom and help answered either.  This is not to fail to acknowledge that the true God could answer the peoples prayers for their President.  But it seems if we can choose between someone who prays to the right God and someone who prays to a false god that cannot hear, we would be wise to choose someone who can pray to the true God and get wisdom and help in time of need.   We also must remember that not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is even if they go to a Baptist Church.  But if we can see fruit in someones life who is a respectable Christian with a biblical worldview, I would think that he would be a far better choice than anyone else who has no hope of God hearing their prayers unless they themselves repent and get saved first.  So I again could not vote for a Mormon.

These are the questions that I ask myself.  They are not the same set of questions that many are asking.  It is a different matter than asking if I think Romney would make an okay President.

I think that the questions that I have set forth are very, very, important and should be considered by all Christians before voting for a Mormon for President.

Non-Christians and others who do not share my views regarding the values of souls, the reality of heaven and hell, and that do not agree that Mormonism is a false and deceptive cult, will likely dismiss my questions as irrelevant. 

There will be those in our post-modern era who will attempt to address my remarks as bigoted and intolerant because they reject absolute truth.   

There will be some Christians I feel who will wilt under the peer pressure of the politically correct culture and dismiss my questions as well. 

I can testify that as a guest writer on other blogs, that people will call you a bigot and say mean things if you take a stand and actually have the gall to say that you can’t vote for a Mormon for President because of his religion.  Our tolerant society is not so tolerant of people with religious convictions.

 

But for Evangelical Christians who live thoughtfully by their convictions, I address these questions to you for your consideration. 

Would you answer the seven questions that I have raised with the same answers as I have?  If so, I think we have reached agreement.  If not, at least we can understand each other.

 

For me, I cannot in good conscience vote for a Mormon for President.  The implications and ramifications are just too high spiritually.  Out of conviction, as a loyal Republican who wouldn’t vote for Hillary for anything, I still would not vote for Mitt Romney if he won the nomination and were running against Hillary.  I would vote independent, third party, or not cast a vote.  That is how strong I feel about not voting for a Mormon for President.

There are even more reason based in their theology and the belief of some Mormons that Mitt could be the beginning of fulfilled prophecy and that the kingdom will be ruled from Missouri.  I have had one Mormon respond to a blog I wrote and said that Mitt will become President according these ideas and that I and nobody else could stop it.  

I hope all this at least sheds some light on why I don’t believe that Christians should vote for a Mormon.  For more information about what Mormons believe go to the blog page on this site and read the article…

Huckabee Ask, Does Mormonism Teach That Jesus and the Devil Are Brothers?

God bless.

Your fellow bond-servant in Christ,

Sherwood Haisty, Jr.

337 comments

  1. You believe that God turns a deaf ear to the prayers of those people who do not share your beliefs? Wow! I guess we do have different conceptions of God.

    In a moment of extreme hypocrisy you write:

    I can testify that as a guest writter on other blogs, that people will call you a bigiot and say mean things if you take a stand and actualy have the gall to say that you can’t vote for a Mormon for President because of his religion. Our tolerant society is not so tolerant of people with religious convictions.

    You seem to bemoan the lack of tolerance evidenced in the fact that your religious convictions are met with name-calling and meanness.

    Why should you be entitled to the tolerance that you so readily deny to others? Your comments regarding Mormonism do not reflect any degree of tolerance. I suppose that you can say you are just being truthful, so you can say what is manifestly intolerant.

    I suggest if you want tolerance of your religious convictions, then you need to demonstrate tolerance of the religious convictions of Mormons and others that disagree with, but tolerate, your theology.


  2. very sad that a man of God would bear false witness and put the success of his churcg above the success of the Nation. You are willing to lie about a candidate and allow a liberal republican to be nominated. A man who repeatedly released violent felons (against the pleas of Christian victims)that went on to rape and murder again. A man who caused taxation misery to hard working Arkansan families. A man who want all Americans to pay for the education of illegal immigrants while many of our own kids can’t go to college. Worst of all, a man who justifies all this in the name of Christ! Sir, you are the worst kind of Christian, putting the success of what you believe above the interests of those around you.
    Do you have no trust that God can’t defend Himself from Mormons? If you thing God needs you to pick a poor President to keep Mormons at bay, you believe in a weak God indeed.


  3. Dan,
    You have made a very good point and I guess that I need to explain myself here. I do not believe that the popular notion of what tolerance means is correct or helpful. It actualy comes from a post-modern mindset that denies absolute right and wrong.

    I agree that I am intolerant by today’s popular standards. You are right to point that out and I agree that I am not tolerant of Mormonism or any other false systems in that I call them wrong. That alone makes me intolerant by today’s politiclay correct definition of tolerance. I am tolerant in that I respect the right of others to disagree with me. I am tolerant in that I respect others freedom and would join together with them to defend our common liberty against enemies of liberty. I am tolerant in that way.

    But my point was this, -and you were close to hitting on it I think- I have been called a intolerant for saying someone elses religious views are wrong. In effect, I have been called wrong for saying someone else is wrong. But if you apply the same standard, would that not make the person calling me wrong, wrong too.

    I do not hold to tolerance as defined by politicaly correct thinking. I am not post-modern in my thinking. I hold to absolute truth, moral and relgious right and wrong. I do not believe that all religions are equaly valid. So I am intolerant by definition according to politicaly correct thinking. But those who claim to be tolerant by that definition are being intolerant of me yet they still claim to be tolerant. In the name of being tolerant, they are intolerant of my intolerance, which still makes them intolerant. How ironic. I just say I am not tolerant but believe that I am right about my beliefs or else I would change my religion.


  4. to dr ballard,

    I do not believe God is week. I believe He is soverign over all things. I also believe that I and we all are personaly responsible for our actions. If more people are decieved by Mormonism because of something that I have done, then I am responsible. That this happened does not make God weak. He is all powerful no matter what we do on earth. I just want to please Him and not do anything that would be hurtful spiritualy to others. Jesus Himself said that, “it would be better if a millstone be hung around your neck than to make one of these little ones stumble.” Heaven and Hell are big deals. If one more person or child for that matter is decieved by the false cult of Mormonism and it is due to something that I have done, it would be tragic in my mind. I stand clearly, firmly, and unapologeticly against the false cult of Mormonism. I honestly believe that it only leads people to Hell. How could I not take a stand agaist it.


  5. Your #7 point on why to not vote for a Mormon is the most un-christian like statement or belief I have ever heard. God won’t hear a Mormons prayer because he is a Mormon. Maybe Mormons should be allowed to serve in the military, or be doctors, or policemen.

    The Mormon’s God sure sounds more God-like than yours.


  6. Your #7 point on why to not vote for a Mormon is the most un-christian like statement or belief I have ever heard. God won’t hear a Mormons prayer because he is a Mormon. Maybe Mormons should NOT be allowed to serve in the military, or be doctors, or policemen.

    The Mormon’s God sure sounds more God-like than yours.


  7. A quick responce to what was said about #7

    I know that God hears and sees everything. This is certainly true. My use of the word “hear” here, is that I do not believe that God has obligated Himself or promised to “listen” to the prayers of anyone who is unsaved.

    He has promised to NOT “here” the prayers of the unsaved.

    Isaiah 59:2
    (2) But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

    Even if true Christians are in sin and are not repentant, the Bible says that God will not here their prayers as David testified.

    Psalms 66:18
    (18) If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

    Finally, the only way to have access to the Father is through Jesus the Son.

    John 14:6
    (6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    I take this verse to mean that I will acess to the Father only through the Son of God. I will not get to go to Heaven with the Father or have access to the Father by my prayers unless I go through Jesus.

    Now, this is not to single out Mormons alone and I hope that I did not leave that impression. I would say that all unsaved people, have no hope of being “listened to” by God in their prayers. Lost unsaved people are out of fellowship with God and are in a state of rebelion against Him. So God has not promised to “hear” their prayers.

    If a lost person repents and trust Christ, and in doing so crys out to God, He will be attentive to that persons prayers. But a lost person is not promised access to God to ask Him for things when that lost person is still in rebelion to the Lordship of Jesus Christ over their life.

    If I believe that Mormons actualy follow a conterfit Christ, and are unsaved, then this is why I believe that the prayer of a Mormon would not be “listened to” by God. Just like I would say the prayer would not be “heard” of someone else who believes that they are going through Jesus but they have a different Jesus and they think he is Sun Yung Moon. I do not think that the “Moonies” will have their prayers answered either until they pray to the true God through the one true Christ.

    I know that my Mormon friends reading this feel that they are praying to God through Jesus. And I know that many of you will disagree with my belief that they have a different Jesus. The Jesus that I believe in is the second person of the Trinity and He is co-eternal with the Father and the Spirit.

    I hope that we might agree that a persons prayers will only be heard if they have access to God through Jesus. Maybe we can agree on that. Then the question simply becomes, do we have the same Jesus? But we both should agree that going through Jesus is a must to have our prayers “heard”.


  8. By your own definition Mormons are saved! Mormon’s not only profess to have a belief in Christ they covenant at their baptism to take the name of Christ as a family name and to try to honor the name of Christ as well as do some of the things that Christ has asked us to do, like help bear one anothers burdens ect. So I guess to all the world you are saved if you profess a belief in Christ, unless you are a Mormon then it doesn’t matter what you do you are not saved.

    Wake up to the TRUE REASON behind all the un-Christian like attacks on Mormonism by other Christians is not theology, but money.

    The Mormon Church is run by a lay ministry (No paid ministers). Leaders of other Christians churches brain wash their members and whip them into a frenzy against Mormons to protect their salary. Leaders are scared their congregations will ask themselves, “If the Mormons are Christians and their religious leaders are not paid then why are we paying our leaders?”

    Who is serving from their heart? He who serves without pay or he who is making a buck from his service? One is charity and duty to God the other is a job!

    1 Peter 5:2 “2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the coversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;”

    See also:
    See Mathhew 10:9
    Isaiah 45:13


  9. Sherwood-

    I’m disappointed. I’ve yet to receive a response from you on the other blogs.

    More than that I’m disappointed that you continue to make statements about Mormonism that are verifiable contrary to their beliefs. Mormons do not believe that Elohim had physical sex with Mary. It’s a fact that they do not believe this. I realize that many anti-Mormon propagandists have claimed they do–they are lying and so are you by reprinting it.

    What bothers me most is that you’ve taken inconclusive quotes from Mormon leaders and assigned a certain meaning to them. Then, when Mormons adamantly deny those meanings and say that it means something entirely different, you insist that your interpretation is better than the Mormons’ interpretations of their own beliefs. And you continue to tell people Mormons believe a dogma that no Mormon actually believes. How on earth, hell or heaven is your approach fair? Even if your ego causes you to think you know better than all of the Mormons about what their now-dead leaders meant (requires a tremendous ego indeed), how can it continue to be a valid attack of contemporary Mormonism if actual Mormons simply don’t accept the belief?

    If I were on a Mormon blog and I saw this kind of dishonesty being spread about Evangelicals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists, Scientologists, etc. I would be just as quick to refute it. Diversity of religion makes America strong. Bigotry and deceit, which is far to common on this site, is harmful to everyone that touches it.

    Here’s a history lesson you might find interesting: Back in the 1790’s Episcopalians, Anglicans, Unitarians, etc. found Anabaptist views so strange and dangerous to the souls of men that not only did many use unofficial religious tests for office to keep them out of power and persecute them, but Anabaptists were occasionally lynched. Anabaptist rights, more than any other issue, caused James Madison to write the Bill of Rights and place religion as the 1st right protected. James Madison was Episcopalian.


  10. Slick Willy,
    You deserve a thoughtful responce. I agree. I want to take a little time with your points. I pop in and out real quick on my computer and it is hard to respond to emails and blogs honestly. I posted a new post today which was simply a reworked responce to an email. I have been in and out, and right now I am just checking my blog and will have to get back to it latter. Again, I will answer you questions.

    As far as Elohim and Mary, though, let me say that as far back maybe over 20 years ago I was first introduced to the teaching that Elohim and Mary were supposed to have had physical realtions with each other. If I remember right, a former Mormon spoke in our church and we all watched a video documentary called “The Godmakers I and then II”. Have you seen these videos? It has been a long time since I saw them. You may feel they are incorrect and to be honest my memory is faint about the details. I do not base my views merely on them but I bring them up to say that if I remember right, former Mormons acknowledge this teaching. That is the point I want to make here. James White has debated this matter extensively and it would be hard for us to debate on this blog better than he and his Mormon counter part has formerly done in a formal debate.

    I will get back to you on these other points as well.

    Thank you Slick-Willy

    by the way, I hope i not blogging with Bill Clinton, Are you? just a little Republican humor


  11. Slick-Willy,
    I also can respond real quick to your last point in the last entry. I am aware of persecuton of Ana-Baptist and Baptist. I have studied it and have books on it. Ana-Baptist were drowned because of their views. This was terrible. The Bible, in my estimation does not teach that we should, drown or burn at the stake - as Catholicism and the Church of England has done. I promise, I respect a persons right to believe freely according to the dicates of his or her on concsience. But to dissent from someone elses views and openly disagree is an American freedom that we all should respect. I agree that it should not be done with deception. That is an intergrity issue. You have challanged me that I am being deceptive about Mormonism. I am not. I think you have some good points still that I need to respond to, however. But I think we can agree that we should have the right to disagree and not be labeled un-American for voicing it.


  12. I meant to go to bigots4huckabee.com, but this site will suffice.


  13. If you believe the Godmakers movies then you truely are gullible.


  14. Huckabee is cowardly to rely on this type of bigotry without denouncing it.

    Maybe some of you just believe whatever you read about Mormonism, but I can tell you that most of it is certifiably false or deliberately misleading.

    I hope you’re making a lot of money with your ministry of spreading lies.


  15. Notice how it says Former members they make things up. The godmakers movies are completely false. I am a lifetime LDS member, we do NOT teach the lies you have stated here.


  16. So the fact that I prayed to a “false god” had no effect on my twin daughter’s being successfully separated in what doctors could only describe as a miracle. Interesting.


  17. You make me sick. Why are you so terrified of people different than you? As a Republican, I pray (although I know God doesn’t listen to me) that my party doesn’t have more people like you in it. Crawl back into the Middle Ages you bigot. It’s sick “Christians” like you who burned our homes and kicked us out of our land multiple times because of your irration fear and hatred. You make me sick.


  18. Sherwood, what’s up with your picture? Are you Wilson from that Home Improvement sitcom?

    Also, you are truely a bigot.


  19. Jake,

    No, God doesn’t care about your evil twin daughters, or you. That’s what the Bible says!!!


  20. Sherwood,

    You need to spend some more time with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These people are not perfect, but they are more Christian like, loving, and follow the teachings of Christ more than most.

    This is sad commentary on your part sir.

    Thank you,

    Tony


  21. I grew up in the Midwest among this level of bigotry and blindness about the LDS faith. It just shows who wants to know the truth and who wants to remain ignorant. I will say, there are things you will hear we believe and they will sound odd. However, if you truly learn about our beliefs and build up to the topics that are offbase, you will understand why they are believed. Did you start with Algebra or build up to it after learn addition, subtraction, etc? I like to first understand before I disagree.

    However, that would mean you would have to actually listen to those boys who come to your door. I have dealt with people like you too much to know you will continually stand behind ignorance. I am fine with it. Those who want to know the truth will go to the source and actually listen.

    On #5, are you being serious? Yeah, we have done a lot to ruin this nation/world (TIC). We just serve our neighbors (throughout the world) without any ties or even when nobody knows we are helping them. It really must hurt the world for a religion to teach people to learn of Christ and develop a personal relationship with their Savior. On this topic, the whole idea of us not being Christians is getting old and ridiculous. Try something new that has not been logically or obviously debunked.

    There is so much more I can say, but I have a feeling it is falling on deaf ears. I honestly am fine with you following the Savior in your manner. We encourage all to believe the way they feel fit. However, when I hear these words, they are not of Christ.

    Thank you.


  22. Please explain the success of the LDS people and the religion as a whole in light of Matthew 7:16 - “…by their fruits ye shall know them…”


  23. Wow,
    These last post are pretty pashionate. I do desire to be civil. I have no joy in making anyone sick but your responce was pretty strong don’t you think?

    Let me ask my Mormon friends a question. Do you agree with the quotes made by your leaders about historic Christian churches. I posted these quotes on the blog page. The ones I am refering to are repeated here…

    Does Mormonism Teach That The Mormon Church Is The Only True Church And That Other Churches Are The Church Of The Devil?

    The following quotes show that Mormonism considers all other churches other than “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” as “corrupt”, “wrong”, “of the Devil” and “false”.

    Joseph Smith said, “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, “History of the Church, Vol. 1, page 5-6.)

    Brigham Young said, “But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong.” (Brigham Young, “Journal of Discourses,” Vol. 2, page 171. - 1855)

    The Book of Mormon says, “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth” (1 Nephi 14:10).

    Joseph Fielding Smith said, “Again, following the death of his apostles, apostasy once more set in, and again the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel were changed to suit the conveniences and notions of the people. Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness.” (”Doctrines of Salvation,” page 266.)

    Brigham Young said that the “Christian God is the Mormon’s Devil…” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 5, page 331).

    John Taylor said that Christianity was “hatched in hell” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, page 176) and “a perfect pack of nonsense…the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work…” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, page 167).

    Bruce R. McConkie said, “What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power?…. It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel…. It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini.” (The Millennial Messiah, pp. 54-55.)

    Mormonism claims that all other churches including Evangelical Christianity as wrong, corrupt, false, and of the Devil. If Mormonism is correct, then Evangelical Christianity is false and proclaims a false Gospel. However, it is also true that if Evangelical Christianity is correct then Mormonism is wrong. Both have mutually exclusive claims and the differences are irreconcilable.

    The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, President, Al Mohler has engaged in an on-line debate and has also written a helpful article on the subject called “The Church of the Devil“.

    Now here is a question for my Mormon friends.

    Do you consider these quotes as factual?
    Do you consider these quotes as frauds?
    Do you agree with these statements?
    If you do not agree, will you denounce these quotes and denounce the leaders who said them?
    If not, will you agree that you are as intollerant of my beliefs as I am of your beliefs?
    And lastly, even if yes to this last question, can we agree to be civil and respect each other anyway while still strongly disagreeing with each other?
    I say yes to the last one.

    I would like to here from you and get your honest views on these questions.


  24. Mr. Haisty-

    Thank you for posting this delightfully educational journal. I was raised “mormon” (or LDS as anyone familiar with it knows it as) but have been inactive recently. I have had doubts about my faith and have not attended church recently. Now, I am not sure if reading this will chase me back into church activity, but your bigotry has definitely helped me in my decision to: 1. Pay my tithing; 2. Donate to Romney’s campaign fund; and 3. Donate money to BYU. I had almost forgot what bigotry against me due to the religion I was born into felt like, but you helped me remember. I still cannot understand why “well meaning” people like yourself protest outside of our weddings and church services, but to each their own. Funny that it is, and always has been, only Christians that feel the need to torment me about my beliefs and explain “while you are great people,” that we are inferior. Hopefully the LDS converts out of your church didn’t hurt your wallet too bad. Good luck in your quest to squelch growth of the LDS church, and let me know as soon as you find a Mormon who openly preaches and discriminates against other religions


  25. Are you for real? You have absolutely no business professing to be a Christian, Have you ever been to an LDS Church and attend a service. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I believe our Heavenly Father listens to all who pray, we are all his children. I have been a member for 64 yrs and have never been told who to vote for or what party to follow. The LDS Church does not get into politics. What are you afraid of, that the LDS Church is true and your out of a job, and have to go back to selling used cars. You have much to learn if you ever want to ever live up to being a Christian. I’m not saying you have to be a Mormon, but come out to some meetings and see for yourself.


  26. Bigot,

    Keep spewing out the fear-mongering hatred. Your career must be taking a hit if you have to resort to this crap to keep your job. I hope everyone puts more money in the plate this Sunday because of this great material.


  27. 1. “Is Mormonism a false cult that deceives people and leads many to hell?

    Answer yes!”

    Wow! With that type of Christ-like compassion, I guess I will see you there.

    2.So, as a life time Mormon, if God doesn’t hear and answer my prayers, why have I seen and felt so many answers to my prayers?

    3. If you wanted to learn the truth about Jews, would you watch Nazi propaganda? And yet you claim to know what Mormons truly believe because you once saw anti-Mormon propaganda (The God Makers, etc.)? The purest water comes from the source. If you want to know what Mormons truly believe, ask one. Until then, don’t presume to know what they think.


  28. Bigot,

    nobody cares about your stupid quotes. I’m not going to waste my time reading them. Chances are I’ve heard them all multiple times before. Losers like you will destroy the GOP. Get a life.


  29. Those are all good and true quotes. We do believe that our Church is the true and living Church of Jesus Christ. Therefore, all others are wrong.

    However, we do not promote telling obvious lies about others faiths. Where in those quotes was something said that can be proved false?

    Nor do we tell others how to vote by spreading lies about their religion.

    Albert Mohler’s discussion with Orson Scott Card was actually about something with substance. Our disagreement about the nature of the Godhead. I have no problem with that disagreement, except when they try to say that we don’t really believe in Christ.


  30. Just curious,

    Have you read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover?

    Thanks,

    Tony


  31. You forgot the other quotes. For example and I am paraphrasing, all churchs have good in them, if they teach about Christ and about being better they are good, but they don’t have the whole truth. That is what I have been taught. Do you have any idea the context those other quotes were given in? So no they are not frauds but are they taken out of context most likely. All the LDS claim is that they have the complete truth, all churches have some of the truth.


  32. Willy-

    Although the tone of your post is laudable and I agree with the stance you take, I do have to take issue with your contention that “diversity of religion makes America strong”. It is adherence to the truth and to righteousness that makes America strong, not religious diversity. America wouldn’t get stronger by the introduction of additional variations of Satanism. If America were entirely practicing Christian she would be stronger than any nation has ever been.

    America IS stronger through diversity of art, and diversity of voice, and diversity of interests, things of this kind, that are expressions of personality and not attempts to express absolute truth. America is NOT stronger by diversity of religion, unless religion is a purely subjective thing. My religion isn’t; it’s about truth. Truth is not really all that diverse. It’s fairly static. If you think about America becoming stronger through diversity of results of multiplication problems you’ll see what I mean. When we’re talking about math, or brain surgery, or the nature of God, I’m not looking for diversity, I’m looking for accuracy. Aren’t you?

    Additionally, though it isn’t you that raised this point, I have to say that commenters on this site have a strange interpretation of the word “bigot”. I always thought that a bigot was someone that persecuted someone else out of unreason or prejudice relating to a particular characteristic of the victim, such as race or religion. I don’t see any of that here. Mr. Haisty hasn’t attacked Mitt Romney; he’s just said that he wouldn’t vote for him, and he’s been at pains to explain why his religion REQUIRES him to withhold his vote from someone like Romney. That’s not bigotry. It’s misguided and sad, but it’s not bigoted, and to conflate bigotry with honest (if silly) opinion is to remove the distinction, which is most unhelpful when REAL bigotry makes its way onto the scene, as it routinely does.

    I happen to be a Mormon, and I’d vote for Huckabee if I thought he were actually a conservative (he’s not demonstrated this). Fortunately, my religion doesn’t forbid this, nor does it require me to vote for Romney, which is nice, because I wouldn’t want to do that, either. Just FYI.

    Cheers.


  33. Does Mormonism Teach That The Mormon Church Is The Only True Church

    Yes they do.

    And That Other Churches Are The Church Of The Devil?

    No they don’t.

    Joseph said that God told him the CREEDS are an abomination, not the churches.

    There is a big difference between feeling that some of the doctrine within other churches is false (much like the protestants like your self felt had happened to the Catholic church during the reformation) … and saying that other churches are ‘of the devil’ and 100% evil.

    While McConkie (i’m glad to see at least one of your quotes is from the 1900s) sees evil everywhere … i don’t think he sees everyone else as ENTIRELY evil. Mormons see their doctrine as whole and complete. there is falsehood in every doctrine, therefore that is not complete … but also means that there are parts of the truth everywhere as well … and that is what you will hear about far more at Mormon churches … the idea that like Joseph Smith said (and as our modern leaders repeat) ‘bring all the truth that you have and see if we can’t add to it.’


  34. Is it not logical for there to be only one true Church? I know this goes against all political correctness, but why would Christ have different teachings all over? Remember, “a house divided cannot stand.” Either the apostasy happened as foretold in the Bible and it needed to be restored with the same organization as before (Prophets, Apostles, etc.), or it never was taken from the Earth and the Catholic faith is true. Even the founders of many of the Christian faiths today were not out to start new Churches, but to find the truth. Many (John Calvin and Robin Williams to name two) were quoted as waiting for the Lord to bring back prophets and apostles.

    Now, saying this, I have never sat down and ripped on any religion, Christian or non-Christian, my whole life. I actually grew up going to Bible school in Baptist and Catholic churches. I really enjoyed them and it increased my faith. My friends not of my faith know I respect their beliefs and NEVER tear them down. They know how I feel about many topics, this being one of them. They understand, from a logical perspective, why I believe in the things I do.

    I am so grateful to know revelation is on this Earth and it is not only meant for those of my faith. I have had my prayers answered and I have friends not of my faith who have had theirs, too. The Lord loves all, even non-Christian. I am grateful for those who the Lord has put in my path (again, of my faith and not of my faith) to help me learn the Gospel of the Savior.

    Thank you for giving me an opportunity to feel even stronger in my convictions. I need to log off now (end of day), but I encourage you to REALLY think about what you have said and REALLY listen to those young men/women who spend 1.5 - 2 years of their life serving the Lord 100%. If you do not want to believe or just do not believe in it - fine. Just do not throw out twisted truths and falsehoods. Just live your life and all will be right in the end. I have heard everything you have and could say before. But, know this, I KNOW my beliefs. I have tested them (probably too much :)) and they have always come back in the positive. But, what does it really do to go back and forth. If you want to really learn, you will. If not, you will not.


  35. As a Mormon, here is my response to this.

    1. LDS church does proselytize. I agree. That’s obvious. Nearly all religions do in one form or another. Jesus commanded us to do so. And logically, if you believe something and it brings you joy, you have a natural inclination to want to share that with others.

    I also understand you believe my religion is false. But I don’t agree with the concept that spreading of LDS religion or any other religion is a bad thing. Nearly all religions teach some form of charity, obedience, faith, and global conscience. This is never a bad thing. All religions bring people closer to Christ in teaching these things. You shouldn’t feel like the spreading of Mormonism is a threat to humanity. I don’t believe that the spreading of non-Mormon faiths as being a threat to humanity.

    2. I’m really sick of someone telling my how I believe. I don’t believe Elohim had sex with Mary. It’s not in any LDS scripture. It’s not taught by the living prophet and apostles of the LDS church. If you want to know what a Mormon believes, ask him, but you better be humble enough to accept their answers at face value. Don’t go trying to dig up non-binding, non-authoritative, esoteric statements made by LDS leaders and shove them in my face. I challenge you to sit through all eight hours of the next LDS general conference meeting and find two sentences on any doctrinal statements on Christ, the nature of God, the Holy Ghost, faith, repentance, grace, revelation, heaven/hell, etc. which as an evangelical Christian you don’t agree with. But it might be troubling for you, as you might have to give up some of these beliefs you have that Mormons are evil, which comfort you somehow.

    3. The notion that you answer for God in what prayers he will hear and answer is despicable. Are you going to tell a little Chinese boy that his prayer is not answered because he’s not an Evangelical Christian? I believe in a God who hears all his children’s prayers, no matter the religion, and is faithful and answers them. You are in danger of what Jesus criticized the Pharisees for in Matthew 23:13. “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.”


  36. “Mormonism claims that all other churches including Evangelical Christianity as wrong, corrupt, false, and of the Devil. If Mormonism is correct, then Evangelical Christianity is false and proclaims a false Gospel. However, it is also true that if Evangelical Christianity is correct then Mormonism is wrong. Both have mutually exclusive claims and the differences are irreconcilable.”

    The Mormon church does **gasp** believe it self to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, but this belief is simply no different than Christians who believe Christianity to be the only true religion. Really, what is the difference? The difference between Mormons and Christians such as yourself is that Mormons value the faith of everyone. For Christians, any one who is a non-christian is unworthy of salvation, regardless of faith, sincerity or the kind of life that person leads. Mormons believe that we will all be judged according to the light we have received. While we believe that we have the fullness of the gospel, this does not make the faith of others any less sincere and we believe they will be blessed for it. God will draw near to those who draw near to him. Regardless of religion. Mormons don’t try to rob or destroy the faith of anyone, we simply try to add to it.

    Let me propose a simple logical test for you. Suppose there is a man, a Sherpa, living in Nepal hundreds of years ago. He is a good man, loves his family, and is an honest and benevolent father and neighbor. By every measurable category his is Christ-like. However, this man has never accepted Christ because, in his time and place, such knowledge was unavailable. Is this man saved? On the one hand, he has led and honest and Christ-like life, but on the other, he has never accepted Christ and therefore does not qualify for salvation, by your own criteria. Will you be the man to condemn him to hell?

    It is the unspoken paradox of Christianity. If he is allowed into Heaven, than one need not accept Christ, only lead a good life, to get into Heaven. If he is not allowed into Heaven, than God is a hypocrite who claims to love his Children and yet condemns the vast majority of them to hell because they had the audacity to be born in a time and place where Christianity was not available.

    Of course for Mormons, we don’t see a paradox. We believe that he will be blessed for his honesty and goodness in this life and receive an opportunity to accept Christ after death. I have never heard a viable answer to the Christian Paradox and I would love to hear your thoughts.


  37. Wow! Look Adolf, I’d like to know how much you receive from your congregation? Last I checked the Bible taught to take not thought of purse. Hmm I’m guessing you’re afraid your job security is waining. You’re making references about a religion you know nothing about based on an anti movie you watched 20 years ago? Wow! I am not dumber for reading your comments.


  38. Bravo! I will never vote for a mormon, they all make me sick! Mormons, you are all going to HELL!!! Have fun down there, Ill be laughing at you while enjoying my mansion in heaven. HAHA, suckers!


  39. Interesting. I have Baptists and other evangelical friends that sound a lot like you. It just struck me while reading your article–you all make me more than just a little sick to my stomach. You truly are the most un-Christian “Christians” I’ve ever met. “By their fruits, ye shall know them.” Perhaps is all your religious study, you focus a little more closely on that central precept.


  40. How ironic is this?

    from Steve: “If you want to hear what your church is really teaching why dont you come and listen to pastor Haisty some time. He will teach you what is not taught at you stupid mormon “church”.”

    To find out what my church is “really” teaching, I must go to pastor Haisty instead of hearing it at my own church. Where is this super secret stuff being taught? I’ve yet to encounter it.

    I can live my entire life in the LDS church, serve a mission, spend hours every week for decades in church service, serve in LDS local leadership, teach lessons and give sermons in LDS church, read Bible, Book of Mormon, and dozens and dozens of LDS doctrinal commentary books, and never come across a doctrine that my church believes in? Yet with one visit to Pastor Haisty, he can illuminate this for me? That is very odd to me.


  41. Great,
    I will believe your pastor who knows nothing about the LDS church except for the lies in movies made by anti-LDS people, and I won’t believe what has really been taught to me for years in the actual church. I hope you catch the sarcasim. You make no sense whatsoever. Would you believe a video make by athiests about your church. I hope not. Go to LDS.org to learn what the church really teaches.


  42. “They actually teach that Elohim came down and had sex with Mary and that is why Jesus is the ‘only begotten’.”

    This statement is patently false and is based on incorrect assumptions. I am a life long member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. I have never heard this crazy idea until a couple of days ago. All I can say is, “Wow.”


  43. Shouldn’t your pastor teach you how to come closer to God instead of how evil LDS people are. I know in my church we watch videos about Christ not about anti-religious lies put out by hate-mongers. If you go to a LDS church you will not hear anything about how bad everybody elses religion is you will learn how to come closer to God and Jesus Christ.


  44. Let’s start with where we most certainly agree. There was a falling away/apostasy from the Church established by Jesus Christ’s Apostles that began with their deaths/exile. You’re not Catholic so we’re already on the same page here.

    As a result of this falling away, the organization, pure doctrine, etc. was lost and the world was devoid of Christ’s church in its purest form. There were writings, but the Bible didn’t even BEGIN to receive its current form until the Synod of Hippo in 393 AD. What was included in the Holy Bible was actually decided by votes of men who were already vicim to probably 350 years of changes to the true and pure understanding of Christ’s gospel. Without question this affected the decision of what is considered holy writ and what is not. Again, why aren’t you Catholic if you believe that those men in attendance and the several synods voted in accordance with God’s will?

    The Holy Bible will continued to be read by me everyday looking for spiritual insights and inspiration, but with the understanding that men have created, through ignorant votes and deficient translations, an imperfect book of scripture.

    Fast forward now 1400 years or so. Hundreds of Christian churches have split away from the Church in Rome. You have millions of Christians doing the best they can to do God’s will with what they had. Misunderstanding and rivalry between the different Christian sects was rampant. And then a 14 year old boy put James 1:5-6 to the test.

    And what was the answer to his prayer. You say it was that all professed Christian churches are “of the devil”. No, what was said was that they were an abomination, which means, “an object of intense disapproval”. It doesn’t mean that they taught nothing of Christ’s teachings. Of course they did and continue to do. But the fulness of the gospel understanding had been lost long before and had to be restored. God could not approve a church’s claim that they had the way to salvation when they didn’t even know all the instructions.

    The most beautiful teaching of the LDS church is that God restored, not man reformed. We attribute all to God in the creation of the LDS church. Every other non-Catholic christian church in the world can only attribute their church’s creation to a theology degree and/or a different (”better”) understanding of the Bible.

    I am happy you are a staunch believer in Christ. It is the first step in our desired return to God, our Heavenly Father. I hope my little posting has given you a better sense for what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints truly believe. You never have to convert, but you should have a proper understanding of another’s beliefs before you condemn them. I hope you will be able to have a greater sense of love to your fellow men, leave bigotry behind, and do much good in the world.

    Hoosier


  45. Well greg,

    Now you know! Strange isnt it?


  46. That’s funny that it will allow two different posters to post under the same name. That wasn’t me by the way.


  47. Ex-Mormons are the best source of doctrine. Please continue to find them and spread the word.


  48. Steve,

    Are you limiting God, in what he could or could not do? We do not preach how Mary became pregnant, but we do not put limits on God, and simply state that everything is magical.

    Besides, is the concept of God not having a tangible body also not strange, that he and the Holy Ghost and Jesus are one?

    Every faith has strange or interesting beliefs.

    The Mormons believe in a Perfect God, and they do not place limits on him.


  49. Yes do that and we will continue to find God and Jesus and spread good throughout the world.


  50. I’m looking to by a Ford truck. Anyone know of a good Chevy dealership to go to? They should give me an unbiased evaluation of the F-150, right?


  51. Believing in God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost makes you a satan worshipper. Repent Mormons!!!


  52. I cannot support Mike Huckabee because he is a Democrat in sheep’s clothing on issues of taxation, spending, ethics, crime, foreign policy and religious liberty. Plus, he is an obvious liar on the “Christian leader” issue. Whenever he gets called on his bigoted anti-Mormon campaign strategy he says, “Gee I just don’t know much about Romney’s Mormon religion.” This from a Bible school graduate who worked for 20 years as a Baptist minister in the Bible belt? Wasn’t he paying attention at the Baptist convention he spoke at in Salt Lake City where the whole theme seemed to be “saving” Mormons? Hasn’t he read any of the anti-Mormon literature he was given at that convention (and others)? Hasn’t he ever preached a sermon warning his congregation of the evils of Mormonism? Hasn’t he ever visited your web site? Maybe he’s not a liar…He could just be stupid and ignorant. What do you think? Either way, we deserve better in a president.


  53. “LSD guy,
    Yeah, Pastor will tell you what you will not learn in church. Have you seen god makers? I have heard pastor say it many times at church, mormons are the spawn of the devil and doing his work. You are mad because he has pastor has exposed you for what you really are. Frauds and liars bent upon destryoing all that is good!! I see you for what you really are and am not afraid to say it.

    God have mercy upon your evil hateful soul.”

    No, I’m not mad at you for exposing who I am. If you see what I am or what I believe and you hate me for that, then that is your right. That’s not the LDS style, but I can see where you’re coming from in that you believe incorrect doctrine about God is evil. What I really don’t like is non-LDS telling me what LDS believe.


  54. Steve. It would be strange if it were part of the doctrine of the LDS church. It isn’t.


  55. I’m losing track of who are the “real” evangelicals and pastors and who are the “fakes”. Or maybe the problem is with my premise that there is such a thing as a non-fake evangelical.


  56. Wow pastor, quite the Christian stance. Being the judge and all.


  57. Wow, pastor, you just made my day. I laughed for 10 minutes after reading your post. I especially liked point number seven, that God will not answer the prayers of Mormons. It’s been years since I’ve talked to someone so narrow minded and bigoted. Thank you for reminding me what it was like. It’s amazing that someone who preaches so much love and peace could spew forth such bull excrement. The really amazing part is that with a title like “pastor” it would imply you were leading a congregation somewhere. That troubles me deeply.

    I have an idea. Kneel down tonight and ask God sincerely if these points you have made on this website are true. You might be surprised at how you feel.


  58. I don’t know about you, but I cannot wait until Christ comes again and all of these hateful, misunderstanding people will see Christ and know his true gospel. Won’t they be shocked to see that the Book of Mormon is true? I cannot wait! I hope He comes soon…


  59. A vote for Huck is a vote for a liberal.


  60. And we know current liberalism is of the devil


  61. Sorry to have to break this to you . . . .

    But God is a Mormon.


  62. Dash-

    I believe diversity of religion absolutely makes America stronger. How many people have a steadfast belief in Christ where diversity of religion is limited? You’ll quickly find that nations who have not had a real diversity over the last several centuries have little faith and those blessed with diverse religious options have much greater faith. I think Mitt’s speech spoke to this–people of all faiths can learn from each other. Most faiths have some virtue other faiths could benefit from. Maybe the “virtue” isn’t a doctrine, but a method.

    Do you find the commitment of Jews remarkable? Do you find the personal way Evangelicals pray to God inspiring? Do you find the humanitarian efforts of the Salvation Army wonderful? I’m not saying your faith doesn’t have some or all of these attributes. I’m saying you can find wonderful things that make America better from many different faiths.

    Now, I don’t want to get into the philosophical implications of truth. Suffice it to say that I do believe in transcendental truth, as you obviously do, but I believe I find truth when it’s indicated through evidence or when I feel the Lord touch my heart and tell me. The problem with truth is that every religion thinks they have it and the religions don’t agree. Only with diversity of faith are we protected from having our religion stripped from us… until Christ returns anyway.

    Obviously, evil institutions (Satan Worship) do not fit into my views of religious diversity. I agree, they don’t help America. But allowing each American to choose his religion and worship as he pleases creates religious diversity and betters America.


  63. Maybe you should learn proper grammar and spelling before you publish such ridiculous posts. People might actually take you a bit more seriously. If your definition of a “Christian” is someone who accepts Christ, than why wouldn’t a Mormon be considered a Christian- because their “idea” of Christ differs from yours? I should probably point out that the real name of the “Mormon” church is in fact, The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. That sounds pretty Christian to me. Also, what are you doing to save people from hell if you preach such blatant intolerance? Was it not Christ himself who said, “Love your neighbor as yourself?” Maybe you should read about the Pharisees- you might identify with their belied system.


  64. I have just droped in to see how the responces are going. I am amazed at how many there are. Some of the responces by both Mormons and non-Mormons who are perhaps Evangelical Christians have been thoughtful. Some have crossed a line in tone and harshness. I think that some of my own Evangelical brothers have crossed a line in harsh tones as well as some of our LDS friends. I can only ask that we all try to generate more LIGHT than HEAT. I know you all feel strong about what your saying and I know I have ruffeled a lot of feathers myself, but in the name of the Lord Jesus that we each claim to follow, let us try to be kind and tender hearted to one another. I know some will feel that I have failed at this myself and will be tempted to say, “Who are you to say that.” If you feel that way I understand. Perhaps you are right, but we should all remember that two wrongs don’t make a right. We can all disagree without being so harsh at least when we address someone else who has blogged.


  65. Dude, you told me I’m going to hell. Thanks.


  66. Mr Haisty,
    While I disagree with your message, I agree with your short message above. Hopefully we can all overcome any feelings of animosity and seek to find the good of our friends of other faiths. The majority of my friends are evangelical and I see the light of Christ shining through their actions. As a member of the LDS church, I hope they feel the same about me.
    Perhaps a result of our discussions above can be an increased understanding of other faiths and beliefs. I know that some of the above mentioned information about the LDS church is not true. Hopefully a more accurate understanding has been gained, both by Evangelicals and Mormons alike. Further dialog can only be good.


  67. I asked this question on another part of the forum. Perhaps Sherwood could answer my question. I would like a list of religions that tells me who is false and sending their members to hell.

    Something like:

    Jews- false, going to hell
    Baptists- true, hang on for the ride to paradise
    Catholics- false, get out the fire truck
    Evangelicals- true, basking in the light
    Mormons- false, listening to hell’s bells
    Lutherans- ?
    etc..

    Let’s get is out in the open. Don’t hide under a bush, let’s get this light and knowledge to the people.


  68. The Lord never has and never will leave his children to wander out in the cold. He loves us and he has given us the road map home to his loving care. Any who are serious about knowing our Lord’s plan need look no further than Isaiah 29. Wherin he outlines the great apostacy and how he intends to bring about the restoration of ALL things. Isaiah fortold of the destruction of Jerulalem (Ariel-or a place of sacrefice) He said that they would be brought down and there would be some who would become “strangers” and their voices would come forth as a familiar spirit from the dust or ground.(vs 1-7)
    He fortold of the great apostacy wherin the people would become drunken but not with wine, they would stagger but not with strong drink. He further clarified these words wehn he called it a “deep sleep and (The Lord)hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.”(vs 8-10) He fortold of the coming forth of a great book that was sealed which the “learned” could not read, but would be delivered to the unlearned.(vs 11-12) He further clarified the state of affairs in the world when he spoke of the many teachings becoming the “precept of men.”(vs 13) Then in a beautiful prophecy Isaiah told us that the Lord would procede to do a “marvellous work and a wonder” to bring about this great event wherin “the wisdom of their wise men shall perish.”
    Brother Haisty, YOU are a wise man, but you are teaching YOUR precepts of men. You are not a prophet, yet you condem the words of the living prophet. By what authority do you do this? Your own? A group of men preaching their precepts? This is not God’s way. This is NOT the way our Savior set up his church. He set it up with Apostles and Prophets with “Jesus Christ himself as the chief cornerstone.” (Ephesians 2:20) Where is this church? Where is this “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” spoken of in Ephesians 4:5? Were are your apostles and prophets? Where is YOUR fullness of the gospel? I see your precepts, but I do not see the Church Jesus Christ set up in yours. You are our brother and we love you as such. If you choose to follow your rainbow fine. All we ask is that you allow us that same graciousness without fear of persecution and hatred. It has always been the same. There are always the MULTITUDES willing to cast their stones at the prophets. How was Moses received? Isaiah? How about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ himself? Noah was mocked and criticised for only trying to offer a life boat in the storm of evil. People changed their minds a little too late.


  69. Why is is that the forbearers of your religion are charged with the mob murder of our Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you justify murder of peaceful people in the name of God? How do you justify chasing thousands of my forbearers, men, women and children from their homes in the dead of winter with their bleeding feet wrapped in bloody rags to keep from further tearing the flesh from their feet? Where is your justification for the creation of an EXTERMINATION ORDER on my people just because they chose to partake of the freedoms of our country: because we chose to believe in a God who loves his children enough to provide a living prophet? Why was my great-great uncle buried at sea because he died at sea just days after the birth of my grandfather while his mother clung on to the tiny thread of life, retching into a bucket unable to even suckle her newborn? Why did that group of American citizens have to flee their homes on a cargo ship for 6 months while straining the slime in the only drinking water through their teeth? Why did they eat moldy and wormy seabiscuits? Why is the Mormon Trail riddled with headstones and the unmarked graves of my people? Because of religious biggots. Because of those who would force others to believe as they do!
    How tragically ironic is it that the very same New York Harbor which bid farewell to some 450 religious refugees was receiving daily shiploads of the same, who were escaping religious bigotry from their “Mother Country” No my brother, you have MUCH MUCH more to explain than do I. How could anyone vote in an evangelical minister in good concience? Easy. By his fruits shall WE judge them. If they are a good person I would vote for him. I am not a biggot. I love all of my brothers and sisters even though we may disagree on points of religion. I would vote for a Catholic, a protestant, a Jew, muslum or Native American just as easily as any other if He or she were a good person and showed me “good fruits”.

    7 Questions answered…


  70. Pastor -

    Do you love the Lord? I am LDS, and I’m sure you do love the Lord. I also believe that He will bless you for any and all good that you do, because He is gracious and kind — and all of us fall short of His glory.

    It appears that a good part of your ignorance of LDS belief comes from the movie “The Godmakers” and tracts cut from the same cloth. Have you ever examined that source?

    When “The Godmakers” first came out, the Anti-Defamation League (ordinary Catholics/Protestants/Jews/LDS citizens)in Arizona met with its producers and with several LDS representatives.

    Its board of directors published a report that documented the many inaccuracies in doctrine in “The Godmakers.” The Board also noted that the Jewish members were most troubled by the smear tactics used by “The Godmakers” because it reminded them of Hitler’s Gestapo, and the smear campaign began before the Gestapo started kicking in Jewish doors and carting them off in the middle of the night.

    By their fruits?

    If you contact LDS Church headquarters and ask for a copy of this Protestant/Catholic/Jewish report, perhaps it would help you evaluate the smearing Gestapo-like tactics used by “The Godmakers.” To make sure you understand the point, the report was not written by LDS members, but by Catholic, Protestant and Jewish citizens in Arizona.

    You’ll also find that LDS Church headquarters will give you the report FREE of charge. There is no paid ministry.

    My own father served in the LDS Church for over 60 years, and never received a thin dime for any of his service. Not for funerals, baptisms, weddings, preaching, visiting the sick — no filthy lucre, to “pay” for serving the Lord.

    Can you say the same?

    Is the reason that you, and other supposed believers in Christ, feel threatened by Mormons is because you fear that your collection plate will be lessened if some of your flock joins a church where the ministers love the Lord so much that they serve for FREE?

    Do you love the Lord enough that you would serve for FREE? Enough that you would find a regular job like other regular members in your flock, so that any contributions they make will go to the poor?

    If you love the Lord enough that you’d serve Him for FREE, what’s stopping you?

    I know a number of Protestants who have a lay ministry, where the preachers and teachers and choir leaders do not earn any money for their service. It isn’t just the LDS Church that has a lay ministry.

    Is that the real reason behind your smear campaign? That you fear the loss of dollar income?

    If you receive a copy of the Anti-Defamation League report on the producers of “The Godmakers,” you’ll find that its Board asked the producers to cease the intolerance and the lies — because the communities in Arizona need all people of faith pulling together.

    In case you haven’t noticed, there is great evil in the world that is impacted our families and our children. People of faith are outnumbered.

    Why not put down your hatchet, and work together in tolerance and love on the real problems of evil that beset us? If you don’t like my concept of faith, God, heaven or hell, no one is forcing you to accept it — any more than Catholics force you to believe their theology.

    You and I have far more in common than you realize, but you need to put down the hatchet.

    Your comment that God will not answer a Mormon’s prayers are ridiculous. Many Mormons, like other people of faith, have received answers to prayer. You have no business or place in attacking those answers to prayer, because they are sacred.

    If you don’t show tolerance to someone who has a different belief than you, how loud will you yell when the secular society does the same to you?

    All people of faith need to unite together, to deal with the deadly problems of the secular world. Our children and grandchildren will suffer, if people of faith do not work together — again, because we are all out numbered.


  71. Ed,
    I just have a moment, but I see you really do want a list of groups who I believe would be people who are going to hell.

    Okay, it would be a lot easier and quicker for me to give you the opposite though and so for staters maybe this will answer the question.

    I believe that everyone on earth is born deserving to go to hell because of an inherited sin nature from Adam.

    Second, I do not believe that their is any religion, I mean ANY religion that a person can practice and serve God from and get to heaven. That means Mormons and Southern Baptist and everyone else.

    Third, I believe that only the elect are saved, and that soley by the grace of God whereby He calls them unto Himself, draws them, opens their heart, gives them the new birth of regerneration which produces true conversion by repentance and faith in the true authentic Jesus Christ represented only in the pages of the Holy Bible (not any other so called revelation of any one else).

    I believe that those are the elect, the saved, and they can be found in different churches across the land. The Lord saves people out of every group, every nationality, he saves them out every kind of religion true and false. I have know Baptist who thought they were saved only to latter truely get saved. I have pastored others like a Jewish man who got truly saved only to have his family exclude him. I have been to school and had friends with Catholics, and Mormons who all had gotten truely saved.

    I believe you can get saved if your not already. But it is the Jesus of the Bible that will save you.

    Now as far as what groups teach the Gospel, which is the correct message of salvation, that is a different matter.

    I would say that not even all Evangelicals preach a pure Gospel. Certainly other religions that make no claim of preaching the Gospel are going to proclaim it. If Mormonism teaches a false Gospel - then I believe it does - then a person would have to be exposed to the true Gospel from another source than Mormonism to find salvation. The same is true for anyone who preaches a different Gospel than the one in the Bible.

    As a matter of fact, if anyone, including an angel - say even Moroni- preaches a different Gospel than Paul preached, let him be accursed. The Greek word for accursed is “anathama” which means to be damned to hell. Please read this short passage.

    Galatians 1:6-10
    (6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    (7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
    (10) For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

    If anyone preaches a different Gospel than Paul, then he is damned to hell.

    If the Mormon doctrines offer new teaching then they are lies that will damn to hell.

    If Mormon doctrines offer nothing new, then they are redundant. Just stick with the Bible because there is nothing new in the book of Mormon anyway.

    The truth is, there are some things new and different in the book of Mormon. Big differnence. And if it is new, then it is not true. It is a false Gospel because it is different than the one Paul preached even if an angel is the one who was supposed to tell Joseph Smith where to find it.


  72. The interesting thing about recently reported discussions of Huckabee’s extensive theology training is the fact that he keeps claiming (falsely) that he knows little about Mitt Romney’s religion. In all Huckabee’s study of religion, did he never take a comparative religion class? Did he never read a book about Mormonism? At all the religious conferences he attended, including the Baptist convention in Salt Lake City, did he never hear speeches about Mormonism? What did he do with all the rabidly anti-Mormon literature he has received over the years? In his years as a preacher did he never prepare and deliver a sermon on the so-called evils of Mormonism? Hasn’t he checked out this web site? Hasn’t he done any opposition research on Romney? OR IS HUCKABEE JUST ANOTHER LYING POLITICIAN?

    Huckabee’s whole campaign is dependent on his support from evangelical ministers. Take a look at this web site. They are anti-Mormons bigots who love to debate doctrine and who would never vote for any Mormon. Huckabee’s phony claims of ignorance and tolerance are belied by the intolerance of his most crucial supporters. We will never see Huckabee condemn the extreme anti-Mormon rhetoric of these pastors because they are doing his work so well. His stealth anti-Mormon campaign as a self-proclaimed “Christian leader” depends on their open bigotry being spread to their congregations.

    Does any pastor on this site really believe Huckabee when he says he’s ignorant of Romney’s faith? How about a straight answer, huh?

    If Huckabee really believes (as he publicly states) that Romney’s faith is no reason to vote against him, why do “Christian” pastors on this site disagree with their leader? Is he wrong or just lying again? I guess pastors know Huckabee’s tolerance is just a necessary facade for public consumption. Huckabee doesn’t really believe it any more than the pastors on this site.

    I guess these pastors think it’s ok for Huckabee to lie because the end justifies the means, right? I just wonder what else Huckabee is willing to lie about to get elected.


  73. Pastor,

    You are very ignorant if yout think all of God’s truth is in the bible. If you think all of “Paul’s” gospel is in the bible, you are an idiot.

    Later.


  74. BTW,

    Your translation of the bible is terrible. Think a little bit more in the future.


  75. Here’s one of my favorite Book of Mormom scriptures:

    Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.


  76. And on charity:

    Moroni 7: 48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure


  77. And on Christ:

    11 And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.
    12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.


  78. Beavis,
    My translation that I check to know for sure about a passage is the Greek New Testament.

    And if you say it is corrupt, I will say that you are as guilty as the Serpent in the garden who again brought doubt on the Word of God when he said, “Hath God said?”

    I honestly believe that Mormons buy into the first two lies of the Devil.

    Yea, hath God said…
    and
    ye shall be as gods

    Genesis 3:1-5
    (1) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman,

    Yea, hath God said,

    Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
    (2) And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
    (3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
    (4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    (5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened,

    and ye shall be as gods,

    knowing good and evil.

    Mormonism tears down confidence in the true Bible, and then assalts its authority by adding the teachings and traditions of a mere man named Josheph Smith. His teachings and the Mormons dependence on the Mormon books makes the Bible -the true Word of God- of none effect.

    Mark 7:13
    (13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Mormonism actually tears down confidence in the Bible as your own comments reveal. It again is the first part of Satans lie. When Jesus was making His statement in Mark 7:13, He was not calling the Book of Mormon the word of God. But you add to the word of God with the Mormon books.

    Jesus also warned about following man’s teachings or traditions that will spoil you…

    Colossians 2:8
    (8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    So you say the Bible is not reliable. You say it is corrupt. You say that you will become gods one day.

    I want to say this lovingly, but I honestly believe you have been decieved by the same Devil that decieved Eve. Is it at least possible?

    Here is a challange for any Mormon who would like to take it. Try just reading through the New Testament. Read one of the Gospels, read Galatians, and Romans, for sure. Go back and study these books. Ephesisans as well. Set the Book of Mormon and the other works aside and spend a lot of time studying the Bible and see if the message is not a lot different. The Bible is not corrupt. If you do not know Greek, compare the King James Version, and the New American Standard Version. Email me if you have a question and I can point you to some tools to help you study for yourself. Why not try it? It couldn’t hurt to study the Bible for yourself.


  79. Here’s a question that I think discerning pastors should ask Mitt:

    “Where did you get your theological degree from?”

    Oh - wait… I guess Mitt never claimed he had formal religious training. That was… what’s his name? Oh yeah - Hucklebee. If a person cannot be truthful about their religion… what can be be honest about?


  80. I have studied the bible a lot. Thanks for the invitation though. I have gone through seminary and multiple years studying the new and old testament. And, I believe you have been deceived, as the devil deceived Cain.

    God bless.


  81. You act like the bible was put together as it was written…like it hasn’t been mangled and passed on through generations of changes and choices to include certain things. And these changes done uninspired men. To think God can’t provide more information to his children is just ignorant. When letters were included in the bible, the authors aren’t specifically talking about the bible at that time as it wasn’t even compiled yet. Paul taught people the gospel and told them this was the only true gospel…which is interesting.

    About your other anti crap…it’s no use trying to explain difficult doctrine to someone who has no desire to understand. You spout off about the same anti-mormon stuff I heard 10 years ago as a missionary. It’s laughable this still get’s thrown around there as a gotcha technique.


  82. …my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;

    3 And because my words shall hiss forth–many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible….

    8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

    9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

    10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

    11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.


  83. 12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.


  84. Mosiah 3:19

    19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.


  85. Oh, also I challenge you to actually read the book of mormon instead of going through it with your prepared references from anti mormon literature.


  86. Sherwood,

    Interesting that you quote this scripture:

    Colossians 2:8
    (8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    If you are true to yourself and analyse your beliefs, your will see that it is you that follows the traditions of men.

    Your concept of God and the Trinity is not biblical. As you know, the word “Trinity” never appears in the Bible. This is based on the tradition of men stemming form the Nicene Creed.

    Harper’s Bible Dictionary states that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”

    Let me quote one of our current apostles Jeffrey R. Holland on the subject.

    “It is not our purpose to demean any person’s belief nor the doctrine of any religion. We extend to all the same respect for their doctrine that we are asking for ours. (That, too, is an article of our faith.) But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?7

    We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.

    With these New Testament sources and more ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”(John 5:19) On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”(John 6:38) Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] . . . seen and hated both me and my Father.”(John 15:24) And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” (Matthew 19:17) “My father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

    To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me” (Matthew 26:39) and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”? (Matthew 27:46) To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus . . . being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (Phillipians 2:5-6)

    Mormons wholeheartedly believe in the Bible. We just spent the whole year studying the New Testament in Sunday School. The year before that we spent the whole year on the Old Testament.

    So I challenge you to the same thing you challenged us, except I will allow you more consideration. Pick up your Bible and the Book of Mormon and study them together. You will see that they are in harmony. Ask Heavenly Father to help you put aside your bigotry and prejudice and open your mind to the truth. If you are honest and sincere He will answer. He hears and answers all sincere prayers from his children, regardless of religion or creed.


  87. My child has a terminal illness. She could be cured, but I just found out that the best available doctor is a Mormon. This man is brilliant, is world-renowned in his field, has the finest education in medicine, has the most experience with my daughter’s illness, and is a man of impeccable personal character and reputation. He has never interjected religion into his medical practice as his less-capable competitors have. If he treats my daughter successfully, won’t that lead people who hear of his good works to respect him and his Mormon faith? My pastor (who knows nothing about medicine) is concerned that I choose a doctor who accepts the traditional doctrine of the Trinity as he preaches it (I can’t understand the doctrine myself because I can’t find it in my Bible).

    What should I do? Let my daughter die or risk sending millions of people to hell?

    What if the doctor is actually a sincere believer in Jesus Christ who tries to live a Christ-like life along with his less traditional Mormon beliefs.

    Can’t I give him the benefit of the doubt as a fellow Christian and leave doctrinal differences where they belong, in church?

    Those who would openly disqualify a person on purely religious grounds from service as a doctor, business manager, community leader, educator or any other position of trust and responsability ARE clearly bigoted and are not themselves Christian in practice. Those who secretly practice the same bigotry while giving other “reasons” for their oppposition are no better. If such hateful prejudice is allowed to further infect the political process it can only divide and harm our nation.

    Our nation is sick and I believe Pastors for Huckabee and their ilk are part of the cause, not part of the cure.


  88. It is a noted weakness of Evangelicals that they rely on Paul almost to the exclusion of the rest of the bible; including the words of the savior himself.

    It is another bit of silliness that they think that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints do not study or revere the bible.


  89. So…. I guess selling pardons and other political graft is what Pastors4Huckleberry is all about, eh? Huck is NOT Christian. He is just trying to fool the rubes.

    snipe


  90. I have just jumped in and edited this comment.
    Someone with this email address, wrote the following words as if I had said it

    twag@wansf.com

    To all you mormon hypocrites;

    Burn in hell.

    posted the above lines in then signed my name to it
    that is a very terrible and deceptive thing to do

    I am publicly posting the email that I sent to this blogger. I do not even know how they were able to leave a post and have it look like it came from me but I am looking in to it. Here is what I wrote to the blogger.

    Dear blogger,

    You have tried to lie and misrepresent me by putting hateful words in my mouth.
    I wish to ask you to apologize and even make it known on the blog to help correct the wrong you have done.
    I have forgiven you in my heart already. I think that you will feel better if you do the right thing and acknowledge what you have done.
    It was wrong.

    A bond-servant of Jesus Christ,
    Sherwood

    Personaly, as a Christian, I think it is a hateful thing to tell people to “go to hell”. I strive to lead people to Christ so they don’t go to hell. I don’t want anyone to go to hell although I believe many will go there. That is why I am so plain in my warnings about false teaching. Not that people will go to hell but that they wont. For those who have read this blog entry before I got to it, please believe me that I didn’t write those words myself.

    Sherwood Haisty, Jr.


  91. Wow. It seems that the Mormons have you flustered. The Mormons who I know seem much more Christian than you are.

    I have no problem with their beliefs or their Book of Mormon. Do you believe that the Catholic church is prefect? If you are like the many other evangelicals who I know, you believe the Catholic church is flawed. You do know that the Catholic church gave you your bible, right? They decided which books went in and which ones were left out. They decided how to translate them. The validity of the Bible hangs on the truthfulness of the Catholic church. If the leaders of the Catholic church weren’t inspired at the time when the bible was put together, could it be that they left some important things out? Translated things incorrectly? Put things in that shouldn’t be there? Something to think about.


  92. Pastor Haisty,

    Could you please give me a more in-depth history on how and when Evangelicals, Baptist, Born-Again-Christians, etc. obtained authority to claim that Catholics, Mormons, Jehova Witnesses, etc. are not Christians? Does a degree in Theology qualify one to make this judgement?

    I think that it would be wise if the born-again Christian congregation and their pastors would quit passing judgement on something that Jesus has authority on.

    There are basically two churches that claim authority from Jesus Christ: Catholis and the LDS, yet neither of these churches proclaim that the other churches or non-Christian as do the born-agains. Please explain.

    In addition, who were the first Christians? Were they not primarily Catholics? Who gave us the Holy Bible? Was it not the Catholics?

    Can I proclaim just as easily that you and your congregation are Holly-Rollers? If not, why? Just so you know, I do not preach to my congregation such things.

    It is my opinion that born-agains, Evangelicals, Baptists are actually afraid of the Catholic church and LDS, Jehova Witnesses. I suggest that all preach what they believe and let every individual seach, study, and pray for themselves.

    I think that you are one-step away from the “Christian” church that goes around this country protesting at the funerals of our fallen soldiers. I think that you need to preach the true love of Christ instead of finding faults with others.

    I look forward to your response.


  93. Not very Christian of you, Sherwood. Are you sure YOU are Christian? Doesn’t seem like it.

    snipe


  94. Thanks for the discussion everyone. The Mormons have proved themselves to be much more knowledgable and much more Christian than Pastor Haisty. No wonder, the good Pastor is so worried about the Mormons, they actually study and learn about the things they believe, and then they live by the teachings. This has been interesting indeed. Even if Mormons believe some weird and crazy stuff (at least some previous leaders have clearly made some unusual statements), it is clear that they believe in Christ, that they study the Bible, and that they live their religion.

    To all the Mormons: Pastor Haisty does not represent all evangelicals. Most are loving, good people that respect and love others, and most try their best to live according to the Bible. In every religion, there will be a few people that are more concerned about tearing down others than spreading the good word. I just hope his congregation isn’t buying into the hate. It’s time for Christians to get back to the basic commandment of loving thy neighbor.

    To the Christians: If you love your neighbors, including the Mormons, then show respect to them, and maybe they will find some increased desire to learn more about Christ and the Bible. That should be the goal here. Love begets love, and hate begets hate.


  95. In case some of you read something posted earlier,

    Sherwood Haisty, Jr. December 17, 2007 at 4:56 pm

    I want you to know that I did not write it and I have edited it

    I have just jumped in and edited this comment.
    Someone with this email address, wrote the following words as if I had said it

    twag@wansf.com

    To all you mormon hypocrites;

    Burn in hell.

    posted the above lines in then signed my name to it
    that is a very terrible and deceptive thing to do

    I am publicly posting the email that I sent to this blogger. I do not even know how they were able to leave a post and have it look like it came from me but I am looking in to it. Here is what I wrote to the blogger.

    Dear blogger,

    You have tried to lie and misrepresent me by putting hateful words in my mouth.
    I wish to ask you to apologize and even make it known on the blog to help correct the wrong you have done.
    I have forgiven you in my heart already. I think that you will feel better if you do the right thing and acknowledge what you have done.
    It was wrong.

    A bond-servant of Jesus Christ,
    Sherwood

    Personaly, as a Christian, I think it is a hateful thing to tell people to “go to hell”. I strive to lead people to Christ so they don’t go to hell. I don’t want anyone to go to hell although I believe many will go there. That is why I am so plain in my warnings about false teaching. Not that people will go to hell but that they wont. For those who have read this blog entry before I got to it, please believe me that I didn’t write those words myself.

    Sherwood Haisty, Jr.


  96. outsider, Dave, Snipe, Jaxson

    I have just read what other comments that were said about the blog entry at…

    Sherwood Haisty, Jr. December 17, 2007 at 4:56 pm

    You would be correct to condemn the tone of that original entry. I condemn it too as hate speech. I did not write it. I think that someone is trying to pull a prank here and I have posted his email address up earlier. I hope he will come forward and confess his sin.


  97. I agree with part of what you say in that what was written was wrong, however I took that comment to be completely satirical and simply smiled that someone would publish the perceived message you sent.

    So… let me get this straight. Running a website which declares a email address to be “required” but “will not be published” and then spitefully publishing the information garnered so all your little friends can mass email him because you don’t like what he said is Christ like? No sir. It is not. You have borne false witness and it is shameful. You Brother have sinned against God and your fellow brothers. You have lied and you have deceived all the readers and posters on this blog. You are not trustworthy and have proven low morals. But I say this out of love and concern only.

    I hope YOU will come forward and confess YOUR sin!


  98. Pastor Haisty-

    It’s clear you’re outmatched. I’ve found the numerous posts from Mormons to be far more Christlike and far more compelling than your posts/story. This falls in line with my previous experience with Mormons… they tend to be bright, educated, rational and fair.

    Now, on to the campaign news: How can you stand by Huckabee when he has so plainly lied about his education? As a pastor, you know as well as anyone that a “theology degree” is a pretty specific degree obtained only at the Masters level.

    No matter how much Biblical Greek Huckabee says he studied in undergrad, he has no excuse for lying about degrees he possessed. Credits toward a degree are not the same as a degree. He only has one degree and it’s a BA in “Speech & Communications.” If I found a job applicant had misstated his qualifications in a similar way, he would never get the job. If it was discovered after he had the job, he would be fired. And some people are giving a presidential candidate a pass on such blatant dishonesty?

    I guess God does answer his prayers after all…


  99. I’ve also found most Evangelicals to be bright, rational and fair. However, I’ve generally found those who produce anti-Mormon propaganda (whether Evangelical or not) to be dim, unfair and deceptive.


  100. IceBlue
    I am not sure what you are exactly accusing me of. Are you saying that I have bore false wittness regarding the person who pretended to speak for me and put words in my mouth that were hateful? Surely you would say that, that was wrong? I think you would agree even if you don’t like me or like what I say.

    I would not say something hateful and then sign IceBlue and misrepresent your nick name. That would not be very fair. As far as putting on the edited post the blogers email, may I make several points.

    #1 I have found that it is fake email address.

    #2 You actualy have a point about me posting it anyway. I suppose that person could get flooded with emails by bloggers and I think in retrospect, I don’t want to get even with him like that. That was not in my mind but I should be careful to avoid that. So I am glad now that it is a fake email. I was not angry when I posted his email, but better judgment on my part would have been to not post his address. I admit that I was wrong though to the best I can discern my heart, I did not act in malace.

    #3 I don’t believe that I violated any trust or agreement with that blogger however. I am not aware of any agreement. But I agree as I said in #2 that my judgement was poor.

    #4 I have been informed that on Sunday, which is a very busy day for me, that a friend of mine that I have given access to monitor and edit this blog, had deleted a handful of hate messages that were posted with my name as the author. This was not the first time this had happened and it had been done by either the same person or another person. This is outrageous no matter what. That someone would dare and put words in another persons mouth in an attempt to misrepresent that person. This is a very sad thing indeed for someone to do.

    I call upon all of the folks who honestly disagee with this blog, and who are respectable Mormons, to join me in condemning the actions of this individual or group of individuals who would post very hateful comments and then use my name as the signature.

    I think that there are those who - like Slick-Willy - and I think that for the most part - IceBlue - have given intresting and thoughful responces at times. I think that for an issue that is as emotional as ones faith, many have sought to handel themselves carefully. I do not have any anger toward anyone and I hope that I have been gentle and loving and truthful. I realize that some will feel that I have failed because of the sharp disagreements that they have with me.

    Anyway, as I said before, I am not trying to win a popularity contest with this blog, nor does hateful jabs thrown at me really have any effect. I do not consider any of you my enemy. I don’t even want to argue. If we can have a thoughtful discussion or a debate that can be profitable, then that is fine. If not, you are free to leave your comments so long as a line is not crossed in the tone of your remarks.

    Furthermore, this blogs primary purpose is not to presude Mormons of the error of their ways, though that would always be a worth while goal and I have been glad to try to shed light on the subject for those with open ears. However, even if every Mormon at BYU, - and trust me, I know that most of the responces are coming from the links from the post there at BYU - even if every Mormon at BYU gets on here and calls me a bigot, and tries to paint me out to be some kind of hate monger -which I am not- even if every Mormon from BYU tries to log on to this blog and do this, it will not change the truth. It will not take away from the importance of the 7 Questions set forth on this blog that every Christian should ask before they vote for a Mormon.

    I feel, that the reason that I have had so many views on this blog, and so many comments on this blog, and that there have been so many Mormon supporters of Mitt Romney who have contacted there brothers to write against this blog, is simply because the 7 Questions, are clearly logical, thoughtful, and irrefutable, for Bible believing Christians and our Mormon friends know that these 7 Questions pose a major problem for Mitt Romney when it comes to winning the Evangelical vote.

    So what have many of the Mormon supporters of Mitt Romney done on this blog, they have resorted to name calling and attempts to even smear my name by putting words in my mouth. If you can’t defeat the argument, just resort to name calling. And the last trick has been to try to put hateful words in my mouth that I never said by writting a comment with my name as the author. That is a very sad thing to do for the person or persons who would do it. In the end it has no effect on me or this blog, as much as it adds guilt on the concience to the person or persons who have tried to do it.

    Anyway, I do appreciate all the good bloggers who desire thoughtful discussion. Again, the rest can learn from them I hope.

    I think for Christians, it is clear that the 7 Questions are really worth the time to work through before you can vote for Mitt Romney for President. Don’t let anyone fool you with Mormon propaganda, the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” is not a Christian group but is a false cult that is very deceptive and has very loyal adherents who we should love and pray for, but who hold to doctrines that we should oppose as lies that confuse mulitudes. How could we Christians support a candidate for President that may become the “poster-child” for this hertical cult?

    I am sorry dear Mormon friends, that my use of the term cult offends you. But as a Evangelical Christian, I firmly believe that Mormonism is a cult. This is not to name call against an individual. I am not calling any particular person any names hear.

    Before any of you call me a bigot for not being tollerant and calling Mormonism a cult, you should denounce your leaders such as the names sake of BYU, Brigam Young himself as quoted bellow.

    If you don’t denounce Brigam Young and these other leaders for their comments, you can not call me a bigot unless you hold to a double standard. Which way will it be?

    Brigham Young said that the “Christian God is the Mormon’s Devil…” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 5, page 331).

    John Taylor said that Christianity was “hatched in hell” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, page 176) and “a perfect pack of nonsense…the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work…” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, page 167).

    Bruce R. McConkie said, “What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power?…. It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel…. It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini.” (The Millennial Messiah, pp. 54-55.)

    Okay, our Mormon friends, honestly, what do you think about those quotes? Are these men bigots or are they discerning prophets who are warning their followers of a percieved evil?

    It is okay to disagree, on what the truth is, but it is foolish to call those who oppose falsehood, at least as it is percieved- to be bigots. In doing so, we attack any rational attempts by anyone to safe gaurd the truth.

    For the record, I do not call Brigam Young a bigot for what he said. I believe that the content of what he said was wrong and the opposite of the truth. But I acknowledge that if - again I say IF - what he said were actualy the truth, he would have been a coward and a poor spiritual leader to not speak the truth clearly to help warn others of dangerous error.

    So, was Brigam Young a bigot because he openly warned against what he consider to be the false teachings of the Christian churhces? What do you say? I say no. I disagree with him but I don’t think he is a bigot. Am I a bigot for warnimg about what I consider to be the false teaching of Mormonism? I will again leave that up to you to decide. I whould say though, that it is hypocritical to use a double standard.


  101. Sherwood,

    As a member of the cult of Nicean Trinitarian Christians, I do not expect you to understand what it is like to have a modern day prophet.

    Not everything that the prophets says or writes is scripture or church doctrine. The Journal of Discourses is a perfect example of this.

    After Brigham Young watched the cult of Nicean Trinitarian Christians murder and rape his friends, and destroy his home, it is understandable that he didn’t have a very high opinion of them. He was calling it like he saw it. It was not however considered prophesy or church doctrine.

    Kind of like the Jews don’t have a very high opinon of Hitler.

    And you may understand how the minor details of killing your prophet and forcing you out of the land of the free may taint the view of Mormons even to this day.

    While you may be bothered by this, I am similarly bothered by the Nicean Trinitarian Christian “prophets”. I seem to recall Jim Baker saying “Thou shalt not commit adultry.” Or maybe that was Jimmy Swaggert. I’m pretty sure I heard Robert Tilton saying “Thou shalt not steal”. If they didn’t say those exact words, it was something along those lines. Should we hold all who profess to be of the cult of Nicean Trinitarian Christians accountable for everything these men said? Was everything they said scripture?

    One of the interesting problems that Mormons face in discussing faith is that members of the cult of Nicean Trinitarian Christians don’t seem to have a consistent doctrine. There is no one for us to quote like you have quoted from our church leaders. My discussion with memebers of your cult have shown me that you don’t all believe the same thing. Is there not one truth?

    Just a few thoughts. Have a nice day.


  102. Brigham Young openly invited preachers from other churches to use our buildings. He even encouraged Latter Day Saints to attend and listen to them.

    Wow! That’s some sort of contrast to you.


  103. I have a question that you need to answer. I am not very active in any Church but believe in God. Why are you such a religious bigot?

    Do you believe that Moses actually parted the Red Sea? Do you believe that Eve was made from a rib from Adam? Do you believe that Elijah raised the boy from the dead? Do you believe that Christ performed all the miracles detailed in the Bible? If the answer to those questions is yes, then why could some of the Mormon Doctrine not be true as well. My point is very simple, this hatred of Mitt Romney, a fine man and someone that has accomplished a great deal in his life, based on his religion, starts to sound like the very reason our forefathers fled England. Is that the doctrine you preach, one of intolerance.

    Mitt Romney is not running to be the reverend or pastor or priest of this nation. He is running to be President. What his religion is does not matter. I suspect this religious intolerance on your part and some of your followers suggests that they need to look into their own hearts and question just what type of Christians they really are. But then I guess you can wrap yourself in you “biblical” robes and pontificate from on high, or was that the Pharisees in the Temple?


  104. Huckabee has shown himself to be a liar and a thief. I certainly don’t support mendacity and stealing. Maybe, for others, the Huckster calling himself “Christian” is enough. For me, I’d like to see actual behavioral evidence, not just easy “cheap grace” pronouncements.

    snipe


  105. Pastor’s for Huckabee is the bigotted “Christian” website I’ve seen it a long time, maybe ever. You’re 7 questions and answer’s are the most un-Christian things I’ve seen so far in this presidential cycle.

    As a Christian, I’m embarassed by sites like this and so called Christians like you.


  106. 21 questions almost as silly as your list of 7.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,31727 2,00.html


  107. Link didn’t work. Again.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317272,00.html


  108. Pastor Haisty,

    I realize that you thought that my blog below was in response to an imposter’s previous post, but I really would like you to respond to the below. I have not seen a reply yet and look forward to YOUR answers to the following.

    Thank you.

    Pastor Haisty,

    Could you please give me a more in-depth history on how and when Evangelicals, Baptist, Born-Again-Christians, etc. obtained authority to claim that Catholics, LDS, Jehova Witnesses, etc. are not Christians? Does a degree in Theology qualify one to make this judgement?

    I think that it would be wise if the born-again Christian congregation and their pastors would quit passing judgement on something that Jesus has authority on.

    There are basically two churches that claim direct authority from Jesus Christ: Catholis and the LDS (and their off-shoots), yet none of these churches proclaim that the other churches or non-Christian as do the born-agains. Please explain.

    In addition, who were the first Christians? Were they not primarily Catholics? Who gave us the Holy Bible? Was it not the Catholics?

    Can I proclaim just as easily that you and your congregation are Holly-Rollers? If not, why? Just so you know, I do not preach to my congregation such things.

    It is my opinion that born-agains, Evangelicals, Baptists are actually afraid of the Catholic church and LDS, Jehova Witnesses. I suggest that all preach what they believe and let every individual seach, study, and pray for themselves.

    I think that you are one-step away from the “Christian” church that goes around this country protesting at the funerals of our fallen soldiers. I think that you need to preach the true love of Christ instead of finding faults with others.

    I look forward to your response.

    by Dave December 17, 2007 at 5:16 pm


  109. Hey everyone I’ve come up with 7 rhetorical questions for Sherwood. Of course, since they are my questions, I get to pick and choose the wording and answers to make his religion look at bad as possible. I think that’s in the bible somewhere that it’s ok to do that. I’ll probably post them on my new blog (www.mygodisbetterthanyourgod.com).


  110. “Here is a challenge for any Mormon who would like to take it. Try just reading through the New Testament. Read one of the Gospels, read Galatians, and Romans, for sure. Go back and study these books. Ephesisans as well. Set the Book of Mormon and the other works aside and spend a lot of time studying the Bible and see if the message is not a lot different. The Bible is not corrupt. If you do not know Greek, compare the King James Version, and the New American Standard Version. Email me if you have a question and I can point you to some tools to help you study for yourself. Why not try it? It couldn’t hurt to study the Bible for yourself.”
    -Pastor Haisty

    That is great advice. By studying the Bible was can all learn about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and draw nearer to God. I have done so many times in my life. At my church, I spent two years of my life studying the Bible before school each day. I have spent the last year in my church Sunday school studying the new testament. In college I took a class on the New Testament taught by a reknown world expert on the subject.Individually, I have read the Bible cover to cover several times. Each time I read the Bible and her the words spoken by Jesus Christ and his apostles, my heart is filled with a sure and certain knowledge………that the LDS Church is true.

    Pastor Haisty, I cannot agree with you more. People should “Set the Book of Mormon and other works aside and spend alot of time reading the Bible and see if the message is not alot different.” Without doubt they will come to the conclusion that it is NOT different. The Bible and Book of Mormon all preach the same gospel, they all preach of the same Jesus Christ and they all provide the same path to God. Neither is complete without the other.

    Pastor Haisty, having taken your challenge on (several times) I would ask that you do the same with the Book of Mormon. Set the Bible aside and see if the message is not the same. You can always email me and I would be happy to point out some tools to help you study for yourself. Once you have read the Book of Mormon, don’t forget to take on the greatest challenge of all. Pray and ask God if these things are true. I did and I got my answer.


  111. Are Nicean Trinitarians like Huckabee members of a cult? Since they don’t believe Jesus Christ is the actual Son of God (He is only an incomprehensible manifestation of God, according to them) can they be Christians? They reject the true Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught and believed by original Christians in the 1st century, in favor of modern cult theology (mingled with ancient Greek philosophy). Why do they reject the authority of the Bible when it clearly teaches and describes the separate nature of the three individuals who make up the Godhead? If they don’t accept the Bible, how can they be Christians? Since they add to the Bible required belief in man-made, non-Biblical creeds like the Nicean Creed, they can’t possibly be Christians! We shouldn’t let them hold public office or any other position of trust for fear that their heretical beliefs might gain credence. Of course, since they don’t believe in “good works” like Christ performed and taught, how could we even trust them to behave in office or to do good work there? Not to mention the fact that they don’t believe in the Constitutional guarantees of freedom of religion for Christians not of their cult. They might let their cult pastors unduly influence their public policy decisions! If they can’t describe the false god to whom they pray in terms a non-theologian could even begin to understand, why would the true God even hear their cult prayers?


  112. To Kaanapalii,
    I would just like to say one verse from The Bible…
    John 14:6
    Jesus said to him, “ I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

    I would like to emphasize the word “The” in this verse… In the English language the word “the” is called a “definite article”… This means that we are sure that it is a particular thing… if it said “A way” then we might think that there are other ways to get to heaven… But it doesn’t… So the conclusion is that He (meaning Jesus) is the ONLY way to get to Heaven.
    So I would say that if you don’t believe that Jesus is the one and only son of God … then NO you would not be considered a Christian!


  113. Squid,

    Nice inference of doctrine that is not in the scripture you quote.

    John 14:6
    Jesus said to him, “ I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

    This scripture actually refutes Nicene Creed doctrine and reinforces that God and Jesus are separate beings. Thank you for pointing that out. If they weren’t separate beings, Jesus would say- no one comes to Me but through Me. Why make Christ make the distiction between himself and the Father if they are not separate.

    And the scripture absolutely does not say anything about believing the “Jesus is the one and only son of God”.

    Put aside the Nicene creed. The Trinity is as biblical as praying to the Virgin Mary. It is the doctine of men who had lost the true gospel and were unable to understand it. Basing your faith on the Nicene Creed makes no logical sense. You claim to be different then the Catholics but your claim the same 4th Century foundation.


  114. Ed,
    Ok then… I would like to bring into reference another passage from the Bible…
    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    In this scripture I would like to make note of the word “was” that I underlined. This verse is referring to the “trinity.” It is saying that while being “with” God, He also “was” God.
    [I would like to note that “the Word” in this scripture is referring to (none other than) Jesus Christ.]
    So… Jesus is with God, while at the same time he IS God!

    Also, just on another note… Jesus was actually God Incarnate, when he was on earth! (This means that he was actually God in the flesh!)


  115. Squid,

    As long as you are looking at the Bible through Trinity-tinted glasses, you are going to see what you want to see. But the belief that the idea of a Trinity is entirely self-evident in the Bible completely ignores the historic origin of the idea. It took four councils and over 125 years to produce the Nicean Creed and the ensuing consensus over the idea of a three-in-one God. Such an idea did not come about through Biblical study but through the deliberations, politicking and machinations of 4 century scholars.

    Even when the Nicean Creed was produced it was not universally accepted which explains the cry of the fourth century monk said “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address” (Quoted in Owen Chadwick, Western Asceticism (1958), 235). Even Harpers Dictionary states “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].” (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.)

    LDS General Authority Jeffrey R. Holland writes: “To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”? To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus … being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”” (Jeffrey R. Holland, “The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent,” Ensign, Nov 2007, 40–42)

    Believing in the Trinity is your right and I do not doubt the sincerity of your beliefs. But to think that the beliefs of those who disagree with you are less sincere, and on their face unchristian shows that your Trinity tinted glasses are more blinding than enlightening.


  116. Well said Joe.


  117. John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Just to let you know that Mormons believe in this scripture as well without hesitation.

    However, there is nothing in this verse referring to the “trinity”.

    We believe that the Word was Christ. He was there in the beginning with God, and his is God as a member of the Godhead, one in purpose with God.

    This scripture says nothing about Jesus being God Incarnate. That’s not biblical. It’s part of the Nicene Creed. See Joe’s post above.


  118. Pastor Haisty. Rather than bombard you with a long post, I would like an answer to one question. Do you believe that Christians who do not accept the Nicene Creed are going to hell?

    That is the inference I get from reading your blog and blog responses. A simple yes or no will do.


  119. Sherwood,

    Your an “edited by SH for borderline language“.

    Sincerely,

    Frank L. Wright


  120. Squid,

    My post above was intended to highlight in an ironic way the dangerous position of evangelicals who think that there should be a religious test for office applied to disqualify a brilliant and moral leader like Mitt Romney. Wouldn’t such a test also disqualify any other candidate whose faith is not accepted by everyone else, or in other words ALL candidates who believe in ANYTHING? I think the founding fathers got it right when they prohibited such a test. Why do you think you know better? Aren’t you worried that if a majority of Americans don’t accept your candidate’s particular brand of religion that he will be shunned on that basis too?

    By the way, was God trying to confuse us with ventriloquism when, as recorded in the Bible, His voice was heard from heaven on several occasions saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.”


  121. Im sure jesus would be proud, you should try teaching by example instead of weak attempts at tearing down others faith. Are we not all gods children? (Even islamic jhadist)


  122. PS and who was Stephen talking about when he saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God? Baptists convienently believe what they want, or what their pastor tells them.


  123. Evangelicals are Taliban, not Christian. It is not what you say, it is what you do. Your actions bear more powerful witness that you “are a pharisee, the son of a pharisee” than anything you could say. You are merely a preacher for the “Cult of Paul,” as you have totally ignored the teachings of Jesus. “Say a few words and you are saved.” What a crock. C. S. Lewis didn’t believe such “edited for mildly poor language”, and neither do I.


  124. Taking out the crazy illogic and rampant citation of supposed Mormon beliefs (did you even bother to check sources?), people might take you a bit more seriously if you at least learned to spell correctly.


  125. wow….just wow.

    Mr. Haisty, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this blog is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


  126. Mormons claim that theirs is the “one true church”. As a full-time missionary for the LDS church, Romney spent two years repeating Joseph Smith’s claim that God himself had declared all other churches to be false, all an “abomination” before God and those who professed those creeds are “corrupt”. This story is repeated by every LDS missionary today. Mormons perform proxy baptisms for the dead (often without the permission or knowledge of the person’s living relatives) to make them posthumous Mormons. Mormons do not permit non-Mormon family and friends to be present at temple wedding ceremonies; forcing couples into making the people who love them to wait outside with broken hearts. Prior to 1990, the LDS temple ceremony included the portrayal of a Protestant minister as a minion of Satan. Romney stated he would not have a Muslim in his cabinet. Yet Romney and other Mormons want us to accept their new found tolerance for all other religions?


  127. You are such a geek, I am not from BYU, just a lfe long Morman who has a much better life than you, and your a jealous little twirp. Grow and find out about Mormons, attend their Church for a month and then tell me were not Christians. Oh by the way, the preacher with Satan in the Temple is not identified as any religion. Another point that you are misled on.


  128. Of course we believe all other churches to be false. So do you. This does not extend into the political realm though. We believe there are good people who are capable of serving in public office no matter how wrong their religion may be.

    You people always emphasize that we believe modern Christianity is a corruption of the original. I’ve never heard a good argument that this in not the case. Does your church have apostolic authority? Does the Catholic Church? I’m just asking.

    Let me quote a couple of Articles of Faith. They are written by Joseph Smith and they are accepted as scripture. They will illustrate the difference between how members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints view tolerance of others religion and our role in politics.

    11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

    12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous,
    lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

    Please do not try to put us in the same category of hatred and intolerance as your group. It is true that we believe other churches to be false and corrupt, but not in the same sense that you believe us to be corrupt and evil. Joseph Smith and others were only referring to the institutions, not the people of other churches.

    You would paint us, not as an institution, but as a people, to be deliberately deceitful and corrupt. You have implied that we deliberately deceive people; that we use bait and switch tactics on people when we teach them the gospel. You use slander and lies to put us down. We do not. You put down our faith to raise your own. We do not. We let our faith speak for itself. Aside from saying that other religions are a corrupt form of Christianity, we merely teach our doctrine. We do not slander the leaders of other churches; nor do we dig up past statements of others church leaders and use them out of context to paint that religion in a bad light. We have no need to do that.

    To tell the truth the evangelicals really baffle me. I don’t understand the hatred and the need to lie about us and slander our church leaders. Some of us have responded in kind, but I think most of them have been rather restrained considering the lies and pure garbage that has been posted on this blog.


  129. I would call on my good LDS brothers to remember the root of our Religion. Faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. With that comes the belief in loving God with all our heart might mind and soul and loving our brother as ourselves. While I do find Brother Haisty to be bigoted in his thoughts, he is still our brother and while I have not been a perfect example, I would ask US to try and remember to be as civil as possible. I realize that the remarks by these men are intended to be inflamitory or appear to be such, but let us be larger than that and debate freely but respectfully too. I do not call upon you to back down because we know of a surety of the truthfullness of what we speak, but we might choose to at the very least avoid the rude name calling.

    To my evangelical brothers: I am sorry I have not had any time to continue our conversation regarding the Trinity, Authority, etc. Hopefully I will find time to give you some responses soon.

    Until then my Christian brothers are doing quite well when they do not let anger creep into their posts.


  130. I think everyone here has forgotten the old saw “One should never wrestle with a pig because the pig likes it and you just get dirty.”

    Because it is quite secondary to my main point, and also so everyone can assume its the other guy, I withhold comment as to who I see as the pigs in this discussion.


  131. What are Evangelicals doing? Stop the hate. Stop the anti-Mormonism. It is rampant among your people. Stop the anti-semitic feelings. Are you not ashamed, is this America or Germany circa 1930’s?

    Watch this before you vote:

    http://www.articlevithemovie.com/trailer.php


  132. Ed,
    So… i would like to ask you if you believe that when is says “the Word” that it is actually referring to Jesus?
    If so… then i invite you to turn to John 1:14 (which i just want to point out… is just a few verses ahead of what we were looking at before)
    And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us…
    So… if you believe that “the Word” in the above passage is referring to Jesus… then so is this one… and if thats the case then i would say… there is your proof of incarnation! IT IS BIBLICAL!!!


  133. Unbelievable illiteracy! You sir, are so blind that you will not let Jesus heel your spiritual eyes. People are not going to HELL based on which family they were born into. God would surely be unjust if this were the case.

    Give up being a pastor and get a real job. Maybe coming out of your shell and engaging the rest of the god-fearing world, Mormon’s among them, could save you before you DAMN yourself.


  134. Not to interject into your argument, but I think Ed meant that since the Word was Jesus Christ in the first place (not Heavenly Father) that the incarnation involved only Jehovah (Jesus Christ).

    I will post a few verses from the Book of Mormon.

    12 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look! And I looked as if to look upon him, and I saw him not; for he had gone from before my presence.
    13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
    14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
    15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.
    16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?
    17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.
    18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
    19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
    20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.
    21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?
    22 And I answered him, saying: Yea, it is the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the most desirable above all things.
    23 And he spake unto me, saying: Yea, and the most joyous to the soul.
    24 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.

    You can see from those verses that we believe that only one member of the Godhead was incarnated.


  135. IceBlue,

    I agree with your sentiment. However, is it really possible to have a rational discussion with people who tell us what we believe rather than letting us explain what we really believe?

    I have probably been a bit more sensitive to this kind of thing, because I have been reading Parley P Pratt’s autobiography. I have just read the sections about the Saints expulsion from Missouri. It was exactly the kind of prejudice and ignorance that is displayed on this website that caused the rape, murder and loss of property in Missouri. It just takes one supposed “leader” to spread lies and misinformation to the ignorant.

    While I don’t think Pastor Haisty’s message is getting out much (see only 29 pastors and about $3,000 dollars), some precious souls will still be deceived and will miss out on the blessings of the fullness of the Gospel.

    Pastor Haisty,

    I thank you for all of the good Christian work you are doing in this world. I do not doubt that you have done a lot of wonderful things. However, what you have done on this blog is not Christian or close to the truth. Please remove it.

    Merry Christmas to everyone Evangelical and Mormon! I am thankful for the Savior who condescended to be born in a lowly manger. I am more thankful for his final condescension in Gethsemane and on the cross. There is no way I could be saved without Him.


  136. Ok then…
    First of all I would like to say that I do not accept the “book of Mormon” as true scripture…
    That being said…
    If you believe that verse 1 is talking about Jesus, then how can you not believe that verse 14 is also talking about Jesus… and if that’s the case then verse 1 states that Jesus is God, and verse 14 states that Jesus became flesh…
    (Its kind of like if… A=B & B=C then obviously A must be able to =C!)


  137. I guess I don’t understand the argument. Jesus did become flesh. We do believe that. I think Ed was just saying the those verses don’t say anything about the trinity. They just say that Jesus was the Word and that He became flesh. We agree!

    The disagreement is in the nature of the Godhead, not whether Jesus was Jehovah incarnate.

    We believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings. This does not diminish Jesus Christ as God as many have suggested it does.


  138. As a Jew, thank you for much laughter. It seems the creation of Judaism spawned some pretty wild stuff.


  139. Well…
    I think of it as just simple Elementary Algebra… Its like an equation…

    Yes the verses do say that Jesus is the Word and that the Word became flesh… But is also says “the Word was God”… the Bible does not specifically say the word “trinity”… I know that… The verses here do focus on 2 parts of the trinity though!


  140. Rowley,

    Thank you for your kind remarks that you made even though you disagree with me.

    Merry Christmas to you also.

    Sherwood


  141. Squid,

    In your interpretation, these verses focus on the Trinity. Unfortunately, we reject the doctrine of the Trinity as it is based on post apostacy assemblies of philosophers trying to understand the gospel without the benefit of divine revelation.

    “We maintain that the concepts identified by such nonscriptural terms as “the incomprehensible mystery of God” and “the mystery of the Holy Trinity” are attributable to the ideas of Greek philosophy. These philosophical concepts transformed Christianity in the first few centuries following the deaths of the Apostles. For example, philosophers then maintained that physical matter was evil and that God was a spirit without feelings or passions. Persons of this persuasion, including learned men who became influential converts to Christianity, had a hard time accepting the simple teachings of early Christianity: an Only Begotten Son who said he was in the express image of his Father in Heaven and who taught his followers to be one as he and his Father were one, and a Messiah who died on a cross and later appeared to his followers as a resurrected being with flesh and bones.

    The collision between the speculative world of Greek philosophy and the simple, literal faith and practice of the earliest Christians produced sharp contentions that threatened to widen political divisions in the fragmenting Roman empire. This led Emperor Constantine to convene the first churchwide council in a.d. 325. The action of this council of Nicaea remains the most important single event after the death of the Apostles in formulating the modern Christian concept of deity. The Nicene Creed erased the idea of the separate being of Father and Son by defining God the Son as being of “one substance with the Father.”

    Other councils followed, and from their decisions and the writings of churchmen and philosophers there came a synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian doctrine in which the orthodox Christians of that day lost the fulness of truth about the nature of God and the Godhead. The consequences persist in the various creeds of Christianity, which declare a Godhead of only one being and which describe that single being or God as “incomprehensible” and “without body, parts, or passions.” One of the distinguishing features of the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is its rejection of all of these postbiblical creeds.” Dallin H. Oaks, “Apostasy and Restoration,” Ensign, May 1995, 84

    If you want to know more about our view of the Godhead, this information is readily available at http://www.lds.org.

    Merry Christmas to all.


  142. To follow up on Squid’s remarks, our rejection of the Nicene Creed is the main reason that evangelicals claim that we worship a “counterfeit” Christ. I believe that there is a book by that title written by a Baptist Minister.

    This is also the reason that evangelicals try to disqualify us from being called Christians. Dr. Albert Mohler (a prominent evangelical scholar?) had a Blog discussion with Orson Scott Card. The discussion was called “Are Mormon’s Christian?”. Mohler’s whole argument was based on the fact that we do not accept the Nicene Creed as other “traditional” Christians do. I found that amusing that he used a non-biblical argument to define who is Christian and who is not. It’s not as if Evangelicals hold to other catholic doctrines like that one.


  143. JFK on Mormons:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CHSVC2nAl8

    Gee, didn’t he know that Mormons aren’t Christian and shouldn’t hold public office? Oh, wait…he wasn’t a Christian either according to evagelicals.


  144. Perhaps we should use the non-biblical Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation to determine of a believer can be called a Christian or not. It has about as much biblical authority as the Nicene Creed.

    But wait, that would disqualify Evangelicals as well as the Mormons. I guess we can’t use that one. :)


  145. Whoops, I meant to follow up to Ed’s remarks to Squid.


  146. Huckabee Defends Romney on His Faith, Faults Him on Economics

    By Julianna Goldman

    Dec. 28 (Bloomberg) — Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee said it would be wrong for caucus voters in Iowa to withhold support from rival Mitt Romney because of his Mormon faith,….

    “I don’t think a person’s faith ought to be a plus or minus,” Huckabee, a former Arkansas governor, said in an interview with Bloomberg Television’s “Political Capital with Al Hunt,” scheduled to air today. “I would not want to think that people vote for me only because I’m a Christian.”


  147. Mormons have a lay ministry, so it’s so obvious that all of you pastors for Huckabee are more concerned about your JOBS than the salvation of others (If Mormonism were to take over all the other faiths, Mormon leaders would gain NOTHING financially from it, so only they can laim unfettered concern for the welfare of souls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)


  148. Rowley,
    I would not use anything that is “non-biblical”… and I do NOT go by everything the Nicean Creed says!!!


  149. Ed,
    define “devine revelation”!


  150. Squid,

    Why go by anything it says? It was a forced political consensus.

    The 3 in 1 God is not biblical.


  151. Squid,

    I am genuinely curious about your beliefs on the Godhead if they do not fall in line with the Nicene Creed.


  152. Wednesday, January 02, 2008
    An Open Letter From An Arkansas Evangelical
    Posted by: Hugh Hewitt at 5:41 PM
    In the in-box:

    A Plea from Arkansas: Christian Conservatives Need to Take a Closer Look at Mike Huckabee’s Record as Governor
    by David Thompson

    As a conservative, evangelical, politically-active father of four in Arkansas I believe it is imperative for like-minded voters to become more familiar with the Mike Huckabee that just completed 10 years as our governor. I realize it’s sometimes hard to know what to believe during a campaign, so I’ve tried to include links to published stories, with most coming from years past when the events noted were taking place.

    For those who don’t know much about me, I attend a very conservative evangelical church in Central Arkansas that includes some other politically active members (past/present elected officials, lobbyists, candidates, etc), and our family currently homeschools our young children. Since 1996, I have been heavily involved in numerous Republican campaigns in Arkansas at all levels (even managing a few). I have also served as vice chairman of the Republican committee in Arkansas’ largest county. Yet I don’t know of a single person in these circles who is supporting Huckabee for President - although I do know many that are definitely not supporting him. Of course, this is anecdotal evidence, but consider that Huckabee just finished serving 10 years as our governor (and I am sure there are many Republicans in Arkansas who are supporting him - I just don’t know them). The truth is, most conservatives in Arkansas had written him off long before his Presidential bid.

    That said, here are 7 key reasons I cannot in good conscience support Mike Huckabee as the Republican nominee for President. This is based on his record here and is not a personal attack - I cannot speak for his or anybody’s motives. This list is not the result of intense research - it’s based on what I know and have experienced first-hand as a politically-active conservative Arkansan. It’s a list I could have given you 6 months or even 2 years ago. And I am not attempting to echo or give validity to any criticism he is now receiving nationally (and I don’t think ALL of it is fair). This is the Mike Huckabee we know.

    1) Governor Huckabee did lasting damage to the Republican Party and conservative movement in Arkansas.
    It’s hard to go after Democrats with a conservative message when your Republican Governor is out front releasing violent criminals, providing state benefits to illegals, pushing tax increases, expanding government spending and programs, and constantly walking an ethical tight-rope (more on each of these items to follow). This tied our party’s hands - many conservatives got frustrated, apathy set in, and some quit the fight. In addition:
    Huckabee insisted on having “his people” controlling the Republican Party campaign organizations that are set up in Arkansas each election cycle. He also insisted that his guy remain as state party chairman when party leaders planned to make a change. The mismanagement and ineptness that followed was so great that the Republican Party plunged into debt and the Federal Election Commission levied the the largest fine ever against a state political party following an investigation of the 2000 and 2002 election cycles. Obviously, this set back the Republican Party of Arkansas for years.
    When Huckabee started his first full term in 1998, Arkansas had just elected a Republican Governor, Lt. Governor, U.S. Senator, and 2 Republican Congressmen. Upon his leaving office in 2007, Republicans now hold no statewide offices, have no Republicans in the U.S.Senate, and only one Republican Congressman remains.
    It was often said during Huckabee’s term that Arkansas had 3 parties: Republican Party, Democrat Party, and the Huckabee Party.
    “He destroyed the conservative movement in Arkansas, and left the Republican Party in shambles.” - Phyllis Schlafly, president of the national Eagle Forum
    “His support for taxes split the Republican Party, and damaged our name brand.” – Former Arkansas State Representative Randy Minton (R)
    “I think if they knew [his record] it would totally de-energize them . . . his policies are just wrong.” – Former Arkansas State Senator Jim Holt’s (R) warning for conservatives around the country who think they have found their candidate in Mike Huckabee.
    2) Governor Huckabee’s non-stop clemencies continually hindered the work of criminal prosecutors and miffed Republicans. The numbers are staggering - over 1,000 clemencies and commutations of criminals as governor. Most people now are familiar with his push to parole convicted rapist Wayne Dumond, who went on to rape and murder a Missouri woman less than a year after his release. But there are many more troubling facts regarding Huckabee’s pattern of releasing violent criminals. While I cannot speak for Huckabee’s motives, it seems clear that he used poor judgment and was reckless with this executive power.
    Huckabee released more criminals than the combined total of every border state to Arkansas (made up of Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Tennessee, Mississippi, and Louisiana) - even though the combined population of these states is 16 times higher than Arkansas’. He also issued more than double the clemencies of his three predecessors combined.
    In many cases, Huckabee’s actions set loose savage criminals convicted of grisly murders over the passionate objections of prosecutors and victims’ families. This American Spectator story details some of these violent cases and explains the resulting difficulties they presented prosecutors working with other victims and their families.
    Huckabee and his appointees ignored the laws on the books, including the requirement to notify victims’ families and explain the reasons for those clemencies. He said to fully explain his reasoning would cost millions of dollars and “take money away from education and Medicaid and other things.”
    A 2004 investigative article by the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette found that prisoners had a better chance of being granted clemency by Huckabee if they had a mutual acquaintance, labored at the governor’s mansion under a prisoner work program, or a minister intervened on their behalf. Prosecutors say Huckabee was more inclined to release or reduce the sentences of prisoners if he had direct contact with them or was lobbied by those close to him.
    He often refused to learn the facts of the cases (sometimes not even reading the murderer’s own confession), made no attempt to get the police/prosecutor’s case files, or even get input from the victims’ families before making his decision.
    The clemency granted to one multiple DUI offender was likely tied to large political contributions from the offender’s family, including a soft money political organization run by Huckabee’s people.
    Good summary article
    “Last January, after Mississippi Gov. Ronnie Musgrove, a Democrat, lost his re-election bid, he issued 16 clemencies, and there was a huge outcry. That’s how many Huckabee averages per month.” – Arkansas Leader, (August 11, 2004)
    “He seems to believe that granting clemency to murderers, rapists, drunk drivers and other convicted criminals is a part of the everyday affairs of the governor’s office rather than something that he should approach cautiously and selectively.” – Robert Herzfeld, Saline County Prosecuting Attorney during Huckabee’s tenure
    “I know some of the people that Huckabee let loose have reoffended. Some of them we’ve caught and some of them we haven’t caught……I used to be able to tell the families of victims, in all good faith and candor, that it was a rare event when a governor commuted a sentence and let a murderer back out, or a rapist back out or a child molester back out. But I can’t do that anymore.” - Larry Jegley, longtime Pulaski County Prosecuting Attorney
    “I felt like Huckabee had more compassion for the murderers than he ever did for the victims.” - Elaine Colclasure, co-leader of the Central Arkansas chapter of Parents of Murdered Children.
    3) Governor Huckabee’s pattern was to ignore immigration laws, often in the name of Christianity.
    Huckabee opposed immigration enforcement as governor on a number of fronts. Immigration enforcement groups call Huckabee’s record on immigration “a disaster” and reference him as they guy who “scares the heck” out of them.
    In 2001, Huckabee’s human services liaison Robert Trevino pushed for legislation to provide driver’s licenses for illegals. It was understood by legislators that he acted with Huckabee’s blessing.
    In 2001, Huckabee opposed a measure to require proof of citizenship to vote.
    In 2005, Huckabee supported a bill that offered illegal immigrants in-state tuition rates and made them eligible for the same merit-based scholarships to Arkansas state colleges and universities as legal citizens. The bill would have violated federal law and was not enacted by the legislature.
    In 2005, he opposed a bill that denied some state benefits to illegals and required proof of citizenship to vote (patterned after Arizona’s Prop 200 that has been successful in curtailing illegal immigration in that state). In this story, Huckabee called the measure “un-American….inflammatory….race-baiting and demagoguery.” He added that the bill “inflames those who are racist and bigots and makes them think there’s a real problem. But there’s not.” He then singled out State Senator Jim Holt, also an openly professing Christian, saying, “I drink a different kind of Jesus juice.”
    In 2005, Huckabee criticized federal agents for a recent crackdown on illegals, saying that it wasn’t fair to the innocent family members of those targeted in the operation. (No word on whether he also opposes raids on other law-breakers who might also have innocent family members affected by the fruits of their illegal activity.)
    In 2005, Huckabee promoted an “open door” policy on immigration as he addressed the League of United Latin American Citizens (LULAC) national convention in Little Rock. LULAC is a left-leaning group that opposes virtually all measures of immigration enforcement.
    “He was an absolute disaster on immigration as governor. Every time there was any enforcement in his state, he took the side of the illegal aliens.” - Roy Beck, president of NumbersUSA, a group that played a major role in rallying the phone calls that helped defeat this year’s Senate immigration bill.
    “I would hope he could be trusted to secure the borders, but given his track record in Arkansas, I don’t see the conservative he has portrayed himself to be in Iowa.” - Jake Files, a former Arkansas state representative and current chairman of the Sebastian County Republican Party

    4) Governor Huckabee was no friend to fiscal conservatives in Arkansas.
    Huckabee’s record on taxes, government spending, and growing government programs was miserable. Basically, when the economy got tough, Huckabee expected families like mine to tighten our budgets in order to help state government meet its spending whims.
    In 2003, Huckabee called a special session of the legislature to push for a tax increase to make up for spending shortfalls. This led to his signing HB1039, an across the board income tax and tobacco tax increase. Huckabee even refused to consider a Republican proposal to cut spending and use general improvement funds (i.e., legislative pork) to make up for the budget shortfall. Ironically, the same day Huckabee was practically begging the Arkansas legislature to raise taxes (here’s the video), President Bush was also in Little Rock to push for his tax cut plan. (Note: When asked about this video recently, Huckabee gave a misleading response to Fox News, blaming his tax increase plea on a court order. This prompted State Representative Johnny Key, the current Republican Leader in the Arkansas House, to send out a letter correcting the accuracy of Huckabee’s statement.)
    If that weren’t enough, Huckabee called a 2nd special legislative session in 2003 to pass a nearly one-cent state sales tax increase. The measure also expanded the sales tax to include previously exempted services (for more information and context, see reason #6 below).
    During Huckabee’s term, Arkansas showed a net tax increase of $505 million, and the average Arkansan’s tax burden grew from $1,969 to $2,902. Governor Huckabee raised more taxes in 10 years in office than Bill Clinton did in his 12 years.
    During Huckabee’s 10 years as governor, state spending more than doubled (from $6.6 billion to $16.1 billion), higher education and public schools got big increases, as did social services. Meanwhile, the state added about 8,000 full-time workers to its payroll during that period, a 19% increase (according to the Bureau of Legislative Research).
    The conservative Cato Institute gave Huckabee an “F” for his final term as governor on its Fiscal Policy Report Card, saying, “Huckabee’s leadership has left taxpayers in Arkansas much worse off.” His grade was lower than 15 of the 21 Democrat Governors. His overall grade as governor was a D.
    “The main reason for the drop was his insistence on raising taxes at almost every turn throughout his final term.” – Cato Institute explaining why Huckabee had dropped from a “D” to an “F” on their Fiscal Policy Report Card.
    “[Huckabee] says he’s pro-family. If you’re raising taxes on the families of Arkansas, causing wives to go out and get jobs to make ends meet, that’s not pro-family.” - Former Arkansas State Representative Randy Minton (R)
    “In the past, he blamed Democrats for raising taxes…We voted for them, but he proposed them.” - Arkansas State Senator John Paul Capps, a Democrat
    5) Huckabee left a long trail of ethics questions while Governor of Arkansas
    This is an area where I think Huckabee does receive some unfair criticism. Some of the ethics charges against him were frivolous and politically motivated. However, it has been concerning for some time just how much the governor accepted in gifts and how he was seemingly always pushing ethical limits.
    During his tenure, Huckabee accepted 314 gifts valued overall at more than $150,000, according to documents filed with the Arkansas’ Secretary of State office.
    The Huckabees set up wedding registries at local department stores as Mike was leaving office – even though they had been married for 30 years. State ethics laws prohibited Huckabee from receiving gifts of more than $100……but there was an exception for wedding gifts.
    Judicial Watch, a non-partisan group dedicted to fighting government corruption, listed Huckabee among their Ten Most Wanted Corrupt Politicians of 2007. Huckabee was one of only three Republican politicians to make the list.
    6) Huckabee’s education record shows him to be an advocate of the “status quo”
    The New Hampshire chapter of the National Education Association (NEA) has endorsed Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee for the upcoming Primary elections. This is the first time in memory that they have recommended a Republican (in 2004 they endorsed Howard Dean). They likely chose Huckabee because:
    Huckabee has consistently opposed virtually all proposals for education reform, including school choice vouchers.
    The former president of Eagle Forum of Arkansas said Huckabee “continued the Hillary Clinton education plan” as our governor.
    When the Arkansas Supreme Court ruled that Arkansas’ public school funding was “inequitable,” Huckabee took the ruling as a mandate to raise taxes in order to once again increase school funding…which he did. (To his credit, however, he also used the opportunity to consolidate some of the school districts in the state - although rural legislators severely watered down the proposal.)
    7) Huckabee has very little support for his Presidential bid here in Arkansas
    For the most part those in his party who know him best are not supporting him.
    In October, a University of Arkansas poll showed that, among all Presidential candidates in both parties, only 8% of Arkansans said they were supporting Mike Huckabee.
    That same week, the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette reported that only one-third of Republicans in the Arkansas Legislature said they were supporting their former governor’s Presidential bid.
    After this story, the Huckabee campaign published a list of supporters in his home state. The Arkansas News Bureau then reported that as some of the names on Huckabee’s Arkansas endorsement list were used without permission and had to be removed.
    This is purely anecdotal, but despite my involvement in Republican politics, I am unaware of any of my Republican friends who are supporting Huckabee. I have seen maybe 3 Huckabee for President bumper stickers – and I live in Republican west Little Rock and work 2 miles from the state capitol where Huckabee just completed over 10 years as Governor (my wife says she saw her first sticker today…..guess he’s picking up steam here!).
    “…if Huckabee didn’t have things sewn up with Republicans back home, what kind of message did that send?….The truth is that Huckabee hasn’t had that much support from former and current Republican legislators.” - David Sanders, conservative columnist for Arkansas News Bureau (November 11, 2007)
    Conclusion:
    I realize the Republican Presidential field does not leave true conservatives with much to get excited about. However, it is unlikely I will support Huckabee over any of the Republican frontrunners because of his liberal record, his questionable judgment, and his reckless use of power while Governor. Now is not the time for Republicans to compromise on core conservative values. More importantly, we need a leader with a history of using strong judgment as our nation continues to lead the world in the War on Terror.

    Two final questions:
    1) Given the many vulnerabilities in his record, what is the likelihood that Huckabee would win in a general election? Democrat National Committee officials have already been quoted as saying that they see Huckabee as “easy kill” and refer to him as “the glass jaw — and they’re just waiting to break it.” The DNC has issued over 200 attack press releases on Republican candidates - only 4 on Huckabee, the last one coming 10 months ago.
    2) Does his record as governor represent someone who should be given greater power and responsibility? Is he Commander and Chief material? Leader of the free world? National Review recently expressed concern, and Huckabee raised eyebrows with recent comments critical of U.S. Foreign policy and our role in the world - he was essentially repeating the Democrat talking points!

    Feel free to pass this letter on or contact me if you have any questions about anything stated here. I have tried very carefully to be fair, accurate, and to stick to facts from Huckabee’s record. But it’s certainly possible I made a mistake somewhere or worded something poorly. I would be more than happy to further dialogue on any of these issues.

    Sincerely,
    David Thompson
    Little Rock, Arkansas


  153. Rowley,
    I would agree with you on one subject, and that would be, that we shouldn’t go by anything that is non-biblical.
    Then, I would ask you, Is the “Book Of Mormon” biblical? If so, how do you know this?
    I look forward to your response!
    I would also like to say, that, since I am not quoting the Nicene Creed, then, why do you assume that that is what I believe?


  154. Squid,
    When I mentioned “divine revelation”, I was refering to God’s communications to all of his children through prophets.

    Mormons believe the Bible is also divine revelation and that individuals can receive revelation for themselves. However, we also believe in the biblical pattern of prophets who receive and declare the word of God for the world.

    Amos 3:7
    Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

    2 Chronicles 20:20
    …Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

    Ephesians 2:19-20
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief ccorner stone;

    Ephesians 4:11-14
    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

    We reject the false doctrine of the Trinity as part of the cunning craftiness of men, trying to deceive us as to the true nature of the Godhead. It is directly tied to the Nicene Creed. If you believe in the Trinity, you follow the Nicene Creed.

    We belive the Book of Mormon is another Testament of Jesus Christ. Like the Bible it contains the writings of prophets who received revelations from God. We believe that everyone can know for themselves whether or not it is true. There is a promise at the end of the Book of Mormon that tells us how we can know if it is true.

    Moroni 10:3-5
    3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

    I have followed this pattern and know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. This does not diminish the Bible but stands beside it, testifying to the divinity of Jesus Christ. But the beauty of this promise from Moroni, is that you don’t have to believe my words. You can put the Book of Mormon to the test. Read it, ponder it in your heart, ask God with a sincere heart whether or not it is true. You can have an answer for yourself.

    Ed


  155. The Nicene Creed is NOT considered by evangelical Christians to be a new form of scripture, nor is it intended to influence anyone’s beliefs it IS simply an affirmation of scriptural revelation.
    Properly interpreted, the Bible reveals the unity of the Godhead as 3 distinct parts, but since there can only be one divine Being, it is not possible to understand that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (all having the same deity and attributes) can be anything but one united and Holy God!
    Below are several theological writings that may help you understand the doctrine of the Trinity.
    These readily available writings are given as food for thought and I hope they are taken as such.

    Systematic Theology
    Abridged Edition
    Charles Hodge 1797-1878
    Second printing, October 1988
    Chapter VI
    The Trinity
    Page 166
    ….. It is not therefore, by any arbitrary decision, nor from any bigoted adherence to hereditary beliefs, that the Church has always refused to recognize as Christians those who reject this doctrine. This judgment is only the expression of the deep conviction that anti-Trinitarians must adopt a radically and practically different system of religion from that on which the Church builds her hopes…..

    Here are some points from that chapter that shed some light on the doctrine of the Trinity

    1. There is only one living and true God or divine Being..
    Deut 6:4 The Lord our God is one Lord.
    Isa 44:6 I am the first, and I am the last: and beside me there is no God.
    James 2:19 Thou believest that is one God: Thou doest well.

    2. In the Bible all divine titles and attributes are ascribed equally to the Father, Son and Spirit

    3. The Scriptural facts are: (a) The Father says I, the Son says I and the Spirit says I…….

    Lectures in Systematic Theology
    Henry C. Thiessen
    Revised by Vernon D Doerksen
    Reprinted 1994
    Part III. Theology
    Chapter IX
    The Nature of God: Unity and Trinity
    Page 89
    ….. The unity of God allows for the existence of personal distinctions in the divine nature, while at the same time recognizing that the divine nature is numerically and eternally one. Unity does imply that the three persons of the trinity are not separate essences within the divine essence. Many sects and cults have broken with the historical Christian faith at this point by failing to accept the doctrine of three persons but one essence.
    Page 91
    ……..we conclude with Berkhof, “The Old Testament contains a clear anticipation of the fuller revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament.”……………..by demonstrating that there are three that are recognized as God.

    Pages 92-99 gives further detail about the above statement in detail and is well worth the read. Here are some highlights:
    1. The Father is recognized as God. (with scriptural references)
    2. The Son is recognized as God. (with scriptural references that identify His diety)
    3. The Holy Spirit is recognized as God. (again with scriptural references)

    These pages are well documented with scripture references, I wish I could copy and paste them all here for you, I hope you have the opportunity to reflect on these.

    Systematic Theology
    Lewis Sperry Chafer
    Volume One
    Abridged Edition
    1988 by SP Publications, Inc.
    Page 181 - 182
    ……..These facts about the Trinity are an important part of orthodox Christianity, and any denial of the three Persons results in dishonor to the Trinity.
    1. Christ………………….Denials of the doctrine of the Trinity must either adopt a modalistic point of view-that the Son and the Spirit are simply modes of existence of the Father- or they must affirm that the Son is a created Being. In either case serious questions are raised about how Jesus Christ could be the Saviour, die on the cross for our sins, and rise from the grave. This could not be accomplished if He were only a mode of divine existence. If the Son be considered a created Being,………., it is also a departure from Scripture. If Jesus Christ were a created Being, then He would not be suitable to die on the cross and pay an infinite price for the redemption of man.
    2. Holy Spirit……unitarians in their denial of the Trinity affirm that the Holy Spirit is only a mode of divine existence. This would require a fundamental change in the doctrine of divine grace and assistance…………….
    3. Scriptures…………………It is rather an affirmation that the unitarians deny biblical testimony which clearly supports the concept of the Trinity. It is quite common for those who are unitarian also to deny the inerrancy and accuracy of the Bible.

    Again, I emphasize that the above writings are given as food for thought. May you prayerfully consider these affirmations of what God has clearly revealed. May God bless you through the reading of His Holy Word!


  156. Squid,

    I didn’t mean to suggest that I don’t believe anything outside of the bible. I was just trying to hold you to your own standards. Our beliefs on the Bible and continuing revelation are made clear in our Articles of Faith.

    8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
    9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.


  157. Ed & Rowley,
    I do believe that The Bible is true scripture… now the book of mormon ,on the other hand, is a total different story!
    I have reason to believe that The Bible is true…
    There are many FULFILLED Prophesies, that have come true from the Bible!
    I ask… what proof is there that the book of mormon is true scripture?


  158. How about this one?

    2 Nephi Chapter 29

    3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
    4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
    5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
    6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
    7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
    8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
    9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
    10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.


  159. So Mormonism is a cult because they believe in the literal bible? When Jesus was talking to the Father, he was really talking to himself? Why would Jesus ask his father to forgive them for crucifying him? He could have done it himself. Did Christ conceive himself? I think Mormon belief is more understandable than Evangelical belief of who Christ was. Wow!


  160. So Christ’s church at the time had 12 apostles and prophets, but that organization is not needed now? And the Book of Mormon is not a replacement for the Bible, it is simply additional scripture that compliments the bible. I know it might affect your income should Mormonism be true, but at least be intellectually honest.


  161. I will not be voting for Huckabee,not because he’s not in favor w/ Mormons, but because he’s not an honest man. He’s like a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    Unfortunately, he is only a Christian by claim, I use to support him. No more.


  162. I agree with Greg. I think that we (members of the LDS church) treat the Bible much more literally that Evangelicals do. That is why I find their claims that we don’t follow the Bible very strange.


  163. Squid and or Sherwood, some questions for you?

    1) Did Christ conceive himself?
    2) Whose voice came out of heaven when Jesus was baptized?
    3) Why did Jesus ask his Father to take away the bitter cup if Jesus was his own Father?
    4) Who was Jesus speaking to on the cross?
    5) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet bascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Who is he ascending to?

    I could go on.


  164. Squid,

    Where to begin. Biblical scripture supports our view of the Godhead. We have no problem with the scriptures that have been quoted from the Bible.

    We however reject the Nicene Creed and the doctrine of the Trinity.

    As I mentioned above and provided ample scriptural evidence from the Bible, the pattern that God follows to reveal his will to us is through prophets and apostles.

    History shows that after the murder of the apostles, the was confusion and discord in the church. It is obvious that something had changed. The biblical pattern of receiving revelation through prophets and apostles was not followed. Instead, Roman Emperor Constantine called for the first council of Nicea. The main purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements in the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father. Why would there be disagreement about this nature? It had not been that long since Christ himself had been on the earth. Why were the scholars of the day in disagreement?

    So throughout the centuries similar councils were convened and up pops the Catholic church. I think we can both agree that the doctrine of the Catholic church is far from biblical. The reformers recognized this as well. They did their best to return to the truth but unfortunately they were not prophets or apostles either. Cetainly they were scholars that tried hard, however this is not the biblical pattern for revealing truth.

    You quote the writings of other scholars. Again, I have no doubt that they are sincere in their efforts to explain the nature of God, however the foundation of their views is from the previous attempts at “consensus”, not through direct revelation from God. Unless some of them claim to be prophets or apostles.

    The Apostle Paul prophesied of this happening in the last days.
    2 Timothy 3:7
    7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    We claim that the biblical pattern for revealing truth has been restored to the earth and that there are once again prophets and apostles that receive direct revelation from God and declare it to the world.

    We don’t base our doctrine on post biblical councils and philosphies of men mingled with scripture. We base our doctrine on truth revealed directly from God to modern day prophets.

    I submit that the way to “properly interpret” the Bible is not to trust the limited knowledge of man. Ephesians tells that if we do this, we will be “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.”


  165. Squid, what two or three doctrines in the Book of Mormon do you disagree with?


  166. Squid and Squid’s Mom,

    A great article on the subject if you are willing to read it.

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=338871ec9b17b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1


  167. Another.

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=9649d7630a27b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1


  168. Greg,
    I have never read the book of mormon!
    Why?
    Because I DO NOT believe it is true scripture!
    Give me some good reasons to read the book of mormon!!!


  169. I served a mission in Indiana and knocked on doors of people like you all the time. The recent events in Iowa weren’t all that surprising to me. Saints, could we expect anything less from those who practice priestcraft? The GOP has been hijacked by crazy folks such as those that run this site. It’s too bad that nobody has the guts to come after these ‘preachers’ and eliminate their tax-exempt status. LISTEN UP: If the GOP ticket has Huckabee on it in (even as VP) DON’T SUPPORT HIM AND HIS SNAKE IN THE GRASS TACTICS. I hope Utah, Idaho, Arizona, and Nevada are all BLUE states if Huckleberry gets the nod. Finally, Joseph Smith told the truth. Ask God sincerely and He’ll tell you. Go meet a REAL Mormon and you’ll see they live Christian lives. Much more Christian than many of the “saved” people I met in Indiana that were drunkards and lived with their girlfriends and professed to know Christ. Go Utes.


  170. Sherwood, Squid, et al:

    Regardless of what deceptions you provide, you can not stop the true Gospel of Jesus Christ from going forth. True, you may decieve some. However, you can not stop the Savior from accomplishing His work. You need to realize this. Read below:

    “…the standard of truth has been erected; No un hallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”


  171. Sherman - Stop fighting against God. Please join Him. Jesus’ arms are stretched forth waiting for you to fully embrace him. He won’t force you to come to him. You need to severely take a look at what you are doing. Perhaps you don’t care. Choose ye this day whom you will serve.

    Another quote regarding the destiny of Jesus Christ’s restored Church in the latter-days (The Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter-day Saints):

    “I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this Church and Kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it…It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this Church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world”


  172. Squid,

    You said:
    “I have never read the book of mormon!
    Why?
    Because I DO NOT believe it is true scripture!
    Give me some good reasons to read the book of mormon!!!”

    The Book of Mormon is the way to find out if what we’ve been telling you is true. If is truely what it claims to be, then Joseph Smith was truely a prophet and he re-established the true church of Jesus Christ as it existed when Jesus was on earth.

    I wouldn’t expect you to believe it is true scripture since you haven’t even read it.

    If you are firm in your faith, then what do you have to be scared of by just reading a book?


  173. Well 1 thing is that i already have too much reading to do!!!
    Another reason is that you still haven’t convinced me that the book of mormon is true scripture!!! Give me some reasons that you believe it is true scripture! Like, fulfilled prophecy, or something! The above verses from rowley did not convince me!
    Thank You!


  174. Squid,

    What type of fulfilled prophecy would get you to read the Book of Mormon. What type of sign are you seeking?

    We believe the Book of Mormon is fulfillment of biblical prophesy.

    Ezekiel 37: 15-20
    15 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
    16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
    17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become aone in thine hand.
    18 ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us awhat thou meanest by these?
    19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
    20 ¶ And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

    We claim to have another record of part of the tribe of Isreal (decendants of Joseph), testifying of the coming of Christ, culminating with Christ visiting ancient America. Another witness of the Master. Another account of His ministry. What is on your reading list that could be more important?

    If you were a Mozart aficionado, it would be like finding a long lost Mozart symphony that has never been heard. What a amazing thing it would be to hear a never before piece of music by this master.

    Certainly you could say, “We have many other works of Mozart, why do we need another?” Does this makes sense? Wouldn’t you want to hear this new work as well.

    I understand your reluctance to read the Book of Mormon because if you find out that it is true like I have, it will change your life. Imagine however for one second that it is what we claim; How could you not want to read it?


  175. Ed,
    ok… i know that you claim that it is true scripture! BUT WHY?


  176. Squid,

    The introduction to the Book of Mormon may help answer you question.

    “The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
    The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.
    The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come.
    After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language.
    In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God.”

    I claim it is true scripture because I have put it to the test. I have read it, pondered it with real intent, asked God if it is true, and received and answer that it is.


  177. Ed,
    Ok, you have given me the introduction to the book of mormon! Thank You!
    BUT… It still did not give me what I am looking for!
    Ok… The Bible gives prophesies, that have been fulfilled! Im sure you know of these! If not, I would be glad to answer any questions you have about how I come to that conclusion!
    So… I am looking for some type of prophesy, or something, that can prove to me that the book of mormon it true scripture!
    The book of mormon says it is true scripture, I will acnowledge that it says that! Of course I still don’t believe that it is true scripture! So, Give me something that might convince me!


  178. Squid,

    If the testimony of millions of people around the globe doesn’t make you interested in reading the Book of Mormon. I’m not sure what would. If Jesus has spoken additional words than what is in the Bible don’t you want to know if they are valid?

    I understand that people you trust have told you that it is not true, but isn’t it worth finding out for yourself? I have always had a hard time understanding willful ignorance.


  179. ok…
    Millions of people also read Harry Potter! Including many of my friends! But I still haven’t read that book! or even watched any of the movies!
    Oh, and yes people HAVE told me that it is not true! But, I can think for myself! So… lets take a look at some scripture that, I believe, the Lord has put in front of me…
    Revelation 22:18
    (18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    This verse in Revelation tells me that we should NOT add to the bible!!!


  180. “This book” is referring to the book of Revelation. The Bible did not exist as a book at the time that was written. It also says something similar in Deuteronomy. Maybe the Bible should have ended there.

    The teachers who teach this as an argument against the Book of Mormon or continuing revelation should know better.


  181. I haven’t read Harry Potter either, but I don’t think any of J.K. Rowling’s readers have testified she is a prophet of God.

    Your point is taken about millions of people. Millions of people say that Mohamed is a prophet, and I don’t believe that. You have to look at the people too.

    Aside from the fact that Pastor Haisty and others believe we are all going to hell, Latter Day Saints are a productive, non-violent, Christian people. The Church itself does tons of good in the world. Does an evil tree bring forth good fruit.


  182. Rowley,
    I was mistaken on my comment about Revelation… I was sleepy when I wrote it! Sorry!
    I would like to ask… don’t mormons believe that Christians such as Pastor Haisty, and well I guess me, are going to hell?


  183. Squid:

    Jesus Christ saves us all.

    First, His resurrection is a free gift to us that makes it possible for all of us to be resurrected to a perfect body and mind some day.

    Second, Jesus saves all of us. However, it matters what condition we will be saved. His atonement paid for the sins of mankind. All those who put the atonment into effect by confessing Him, repenting, following Him, and obeying All His commandments etc… will be saved.


  184. Yes i believe what you just said is true!
    But what I am still arguing is that the book of mormon is NOT true scripture!


  185. I meant what you were saying about all those who are put to atonement! And you must be put to atonement the right/only way!!!


  186. Squid,

    We absolutely do not believe that. If someone has a skewed conception of the gospel, that doesn’t qualify them for hell. Willful disobedience to his commandments does.

    My impression of you and Pastor Haisty is that you both have great faith in Christ, and that you try to do good works. I don’t think either of you are going to hell even though I believe you preach a stunted gospel.


  187. Funny thing, rowley, I have told my Evangelical friends the same thing, “If you keep the commandments and believe in Christ, and repent of your sins, you won’t go to Hell. The level of Heaven that you end up will depend on your repentance and obedience. This is made possible by Jesus Christ.”

    None of my Evangelical friends can assure me that they believe the same about me. I’m going to Hell because they seem to have the authority to decide that I’m not a Christian. It is the doctrine most Non-denominational congregations are peddling. Forgive my spelling. Oh, forget it, I’m not going to make it anyway. Just ask an Evangelist.


  188. Rowley,
    So… Are you saying that there is more than one way to get to heaven???

    Dave,
    Same question… and, are there really “levels” of heaven? And if so, explain, please!


  189. Squid,

    Only by way of Jesus Christ. He makes it possible to get to heaven.

    “In my Father’s House are many mansions…….I (Jesus Christ) go to prepare a way for you.” Also, Read I Cor. (entire book). I’ve noticed that some versions of the Bible here already claim that some of these truths (see above) have been mis-interpreted and are heretic.

    If your definition of being saved is getting a pair of roller-skates when you get to heaven, more power to you. I’m hoping to at least get a Ford Mustang.

    : )

    Do you get paid for preaching? I get blessings.


  190. Squid,

    In the sense that we all have different experiences and challenges in life, yes there are many different ways to heaven.

    But I think what you are asking is if there is any way to heaven aside from through Jesus Christ. Of course there is not. As we both know, He is the Way the Truth and the Life.

    I fully believe the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints contains the fullness of the gospel. I believe that through the grace of Christ, I can be saved by repenting, being baptized by one of Christ’s authorized servants and living the best that I can. There is no dishonesty in my heart when I say that.

    Evangelicals believe in a lot of different ways of being saved as far as I can tell. Some think you can be saved by saying a pre-written prayer from a pamphlet. Some seem to believe that you can be saved by an “Alter Call” (whatever that is). I think that some actually still believe baptism is a necessary ordinance. Others have discarded baptism as unnecessary works. Others seem to think being saved is just a spiritual experience that happens to you.

    Lets just assume for the sake of argument that I am wrong. Let’s say that even though I fully believe that I am following the Jesus of the Bible, I am going to hell. That would make God neither merciful or just.

    That is why the Lord has allowed for us to accept his true gospel even after this life. This is alluded to, but not fully explained in the Bible. Jesus preached to the spirits in Prison (or purgatory as the catholics would call it). Paul talked about how Baptism for the Dead was necessary because the dead need the ordinance as well.


  191. Dave,
    Getting to heaven will be all I want. That is the most wonderful thing a person can want. I mean, if I get a Chevy Silverado, I wont be complaining. 
    Also, the verse that you quoted, where is that in the Bible?
    OH… and how would I get paid for preaching, if I am not a pastor!!! The gift of bringing people to the Lord, though, is is good enough payment for me!

    Rowley,
    Maybe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does have the right gospel from the bible! I am not sure, because I have never been a Mormon.
    I just still don’t understand the need/ \want of an extra book to go along with the bible. I mean the Bible is good as it is and gives us everything we need. Why add to it?


  192. Squid,

    John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    It seems plain to me that with one Bible there are thousands of different churches. Not churches preaching the same thing, but churches preaching different doctrine.

    Why would they be preaching different doctrine if they all have the Bible?

    Why do some evangelicals preach in tongues and other kiss snakes. Don’t they all have the same Bible?

    Why does Hagee not preach the same thing as Osteen?

    Why do evangelicals on this forum hate Mormons and call them a cult when Osteen calls them Christians?

    Who has the truth? Surely there is one truth. Christ taught one truth didn’t he?

    Which one of the “Biblical” churches has the truth? Is is the Southern Baptists or the Presbyterians? Is it the Lutherans or the Catholics? Is it the Church of Christ or the Anglicans? The list goes on and on.

    So who is best able to interpret the Bible?

    Is is seminary trained theologins? Doesn’t every denomination have these, yet they preach different “truth”.

    I submit to you that truth has to be revealed from God. If these churches preach different doctrine from the same Bible, I do not believe that they are receiving revelation from God.

    The biblical pattern is to have prophets and apostles who receive revelation of the truth and teach that truth to the world. Yet none of the so called “biblical” churches claim to have apostles and prophets receiving revelation. They say that we don’t need any more revelation because everything is in the Bible. Yet that one Bible has spawned thousands of different “truths” depending on who you listen to.

    600 years before Christ, a prophet in the Book of Mormon prophesied that people would question why we needed any more scripture than the Bible.

    2 Nephi 29:
    3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
    4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
    5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
    6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
    7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
    8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
    9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
    10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

    Isn’t the arrogant to assume that the Bible would contain all of the things the God wants to say to man?


  193. Squid,

    I can only agree with what Ed has said. Clearly there are enough different interpretations of the Bible that addition clarification was/is needed.


  194. Ed,

    You bring up some very interesting things. I wonder how our meeting with Jesus will go when he asks if we read & heeded his words and the response by many will be, “I didn’t even have time to read the Bible. Was there more?”

    The LDS Church teaches to study things for yourself, pray with faith and a sincere heart, and God will answer your prayers. Make your own conclusions based on reading, studying, and praying.

    I am convinced that there are so many people who are not willing to do this because they are afraid of the outcome. They will either find out the truth, or they think that they will be cursed and even subjected to Satan for doing this.

    I have even experienced situations where Pastors and/or Ministers have stood before the congregation and said specifically that the members SHOULD NOT PRAY for themselves because what-ever he is discussing is “Of the Devil” (Book of Mormon specifically). Kind of goes against what the Bible teaches about asking God and he will answer your prayers. To me it is simple, read the Book of Mormon, pray about it to find out if it is true or false. God has already promised he will tell you the truth whether it is true or not.

    If the Book of Mormon really does contain the words of the Prophets of God, doesn’t it make sense to find out for yourself? Do you think that things will go well if we find out that God actually did reveal his will to living prophets, and not only is the Bible the word of God, but he continued to give guidance and direction through modern day prophets, but most rejected it because they either didn’t try to find out or were unwilling?

    What does the Bible teach about Pornography, inappropriate movies and t.v. programs? What about how we dress and express ourselves? What about how to teach our families?

    Obviously we both know the answer but many are left to interpret what the Bible only might say about our times and trials in this day and age. One Bible, yet so many churches with different beliefs (and so many versions of the Bible too). Funny how so many of those churches accept the other churches differnet beliefs and claim to have the authority to determine who is Christian and who is not. Non-denominational congregations did not exist like they do today over 100 years ago. The “warm fuzzy” fealing has replaced directness, specifics, and single truths. Just ask a someone who attends a non-denominational church. “It’s all good.” (Except if you belong to one or two specific religions, then it’s of the devil.)

    Thanks Ed for your insight. It is very helpful and true.


  195. Ed,
    First of all, I would like to start off by saying, we do not hate mormons, we just disagree with your theology!
    Yes, I agree with you that we do need true revelation from God to receive his word. BUT, I submit to you that I still do not agree that the book of mormon is true scripture! I do not believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet! And, the history of the way that the book of mormon came about, with unverifiable circumstances, has changed several times over the years! And also, each new president(or whatever he is) has new revelations that contradict revelations from previous prophets!
    NOW… If all this was coming from God, I do not believe that He would change his mind so often!
    AND… no I do not think it is arrogant to assume that God gave us everything we need in one book! THE BIBLE!

    Dave,
    Same as above… and…
    The bible says to stay away from all immorality! Otherwise, you will fall into that sin life! That is what the bible says about pornography and stuff like that!


  196. Squid,

    All I can say is I don’t feel evangelical love from this site. I do feel hatred and bigotry. Telling me I’m going to hell. Telling me I pray to a false God and that my prayers will never be answered. Creating a web site that spreads lies and deceptions about my faith.

    Seems like hate to me.

    You profess your belief that the Book of Mormon is not scripture based on what? Have you read it? Have you put it to the test?

    I understand your hesitation to read it. I am sure you’ve been indoctrinated in all sorts of antimormon beliefs.

    Until you read it for yourself, you will never know. I’m frankly astonished at the lack of intellectual curiosity and search for truth in evangelicals. If the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be, how can you not want to know if it is true?


  197. The exit polls in Michigan show that more evangelicals voted for Romney than for Pastor Huckabee. I guess evangelicals are starting to wake up to the fact that Romney is by far the better candidate to run the country.

    I can’t wait until Huckabee’s most recent crazy idea of changing the Constitution to reflect his private version of “Sharia Law” starts to get more press.

    Romney’s religion has apparently helped to make him the good man he is, but, unlike Huckabee, he would never try to impose his religious beliefs on the country. Romney keeps his religious beliefs private, as he should.


  198. Ed,
    Once again (and I am sure I can speak for all of us “evangelicals” on here) we do not hate mormons!
    If you can call me a bigot, then I would say that all religions say that other religions are wrong, and therefore can also be called bigots! Don’t mormons believe that their view is right and that our “evangelical” beliefs are wrong?
    ALSO… I would like to point out that you did not address any of my points about why I do not believe that the book of mormon is true scripture! Like about each new president and unverifiable circumstances (look at my comment above)!!!

    Kaanapalii,
    I think it is GREAT that Huchabee reveals his religious beliefs to the country!


  199. Squid,

    Your premise about the Book of Mormon history changing is incorrect. If you start from the beginning of the book, there is an introduction with an explanation of how it came about. There are also multiple witnesses who saw the metal plates. It’s all right there. Again if you would read it you would know all this.

    We do believe in ongoing modern day revelation so some things about our church are going to change. At different times in the bible, prophets have changed their message as well. I seem to recall Noah warning everyone about a flood, while Joseph warned of a drought and famine.

    Once again, I don’t expect you to believe me. Put is to the test for yourself. You have the capability of finding out if any of this is true. If the Book of Mormon is true, the there really are modern day prophets, and what we say is true. Everything hinges on it. Don’t be scared. Put it to the test. I don’t expect you to think it is scripture before you’ve even read it. I cannot prove to you that it is true. You have to find out for yourself.

    P.S.
    It’s one thing to reveal your religious beliefs to the country, it’s another thing to impose them. The founding fathers made it clear that religion was not to be imposed. Otherwise, how are we different than the Taliban or radical islam.


  200. Ed,
    Of course the book is gonna say its true, and have an “alibi!” But the thing is, that, the alibi is suppose to check out when researched by whoever! And the alibi does NOT check out!
    Also, I do not understand where you were going with your argument about Noah and Joseph. Neither of those accounts have anything to do with belief, and they are two totally different things! To me, that argument falls apart!!!
    To respond to your “P.S.”… I would like to say, that, this country was founded on Christianity! But, all of us have the freedom to choose our religion! I would stand up for a mormon to have the right to believe in what they believe. But, we all also have the right to differ! Yes, people have different opinions!


  201. Squid,

    What “alibi” are you talking about? What exactly do you have a problem with? The story about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is contained in the book itself. It is in every copy of the book.

    I gave you an Old Testament example of different things taught by different prophets. You mentioned that you had a problem with modern day prophets teaching different things. I tried to explain it in terms you could understand.

    If you have a specific question about a change in LDS teachings I am sure it can be addressed. Throwing out generalizations without specifics does not allow for an indepth discussion.

    If you look at our doctrine, the same articles of faith written by Joseph Smith are completely unchanged to this day.

    Again, the real key to understanding our doctrine is to read the Book of Mormon to find our if it is true. If it is, all the other things fall into place. I can post until I develop carpal tunnel but you will never know if it is true until you yourself put it to the test.

    Think about what we have been talking about. I have a tremendous gift for you, who profess to be a believer in Christ. Confirming evidence of the birth, life, and crucifixion of Jesus and of His work as the Messiah and the Redeemer. A record of Christ visiting and ministering to a lost tribe of Isreal.

    How could you not want to find out if it is what it claims to be?

    P.S.
    I could care less if Huckabee lets every know his religion. The concern posted above was about him imposing his religious beliefs on the country.


  202. An earlier post by the good pastor stated: “I honestly believe that Mormons buy into the first two lies of the Devil.”

    Genesis 3
    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    So Satan says two things: 1. You will not die, 2. ye shall be as the gods, knowing good and evil.

    Lets read a bit further…

    Genesis 3
    22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

    Genesis 5
    5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

    So Satan lied when he said “Ye shall not surely die” Because they did die. But they did become “as one of us” meaning “the Lord” knowing good and evil.

    Satan was sowing a half truth. We will die, yes. But we can become like God.

    See:

    Gen. 3: 22 man is become as one of us.
    Ps. 8: 5 thou hast made him a little lower than the angels.
    Ps. 8: 6 madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands.
    Ps. 82: 6 ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High.
    Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father.
    John 10: 34 Is it not written in your law . . . Ye are gods.
    Acts 17: 29 we are the offspring of God.
    Rom. 8: 17 heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.
    2 Cor. 3: 18 changed into the same image from glory to glory.
    Gal. 4: 7 if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
    Eph. 4: 13 Till we all come . . . unto a perfect man.
    Heb. 12: 9 be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live.
    1 Jn. 3: 2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him.
    Rev. 3: 21 him that overcometh will . . . sit with me in my throne.


  203. Squid said
    “I have never read the book of mormon!
    Why? Because I DO NOT believe it is true scripture!
    Give me some good reasons to read the book of mormon!!!”

    First off, it seems to be a logical fallacy to make your first two statements. How can you know it is not true if you have not read what it says? I know the ball is not green even though I have never looked at it. How did you come to a knowledge that the Bible was true? Is it just because it is old? your pastor said so? have you studied its precepts and applied them in your life? or have you knowledge directly from God? see James 1:5 (”If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”)

    Secondly, The Book of Mormon contains a “test for yourself” and a promise to the seeker of truth.

    Moroni 10
    3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

    And lastly, some reasons to read the Book of Mormon:

    1. If it is true, it is a strong t estimate of Christ’s life, calling, and witness of his atonement for you.
    2. If it is true, it will add to your knowledge of God and your standing in regard to him.
    3. If it is true, it will teach you more about where you came from, why you are here, and where you are going after death.
    4. If it is true, it will give you principles to live a happier life

    I preface these with “If it is true” to spur you on to determine for yourself and take up the challenge in Moroni.

    I believe it is true and I hope, out of love for you, you can know it too.


  204. Ed,
    The alibi I was talking about is simply the story of the way that the book of mormon came about. It just doesn’t add up, and doesn’t check out.
    Your OT example is not a good one at all. Those two prophets are talking about two totally different things! Just like in California… One year the weather channel is saying to be worried about rain and flooding, while the next year the same station is warning about a drout and not enough rain!
    Another Reason that I do not want to read the book of mormon is because there IS things that I disagree with on mormon theology! Such as… … …
    It is, to my understanding, that mormons believe that if you are good enough on earth that you will reach the 3rd level of heaven (which I might add, I do not believe in the “levels of heaven”). And when you reach this 3rd level of heaven you will become a God, just like GOD. This goes directly against the bible in 2 ways. In 1 way, it goes against the first commandment!!! It is also the first sin in the bible, that was committed by Adam and Eve!
    It seems to me that mormons believe that you can get to heaven by the things that you do on earth. Such as, the more wives you have the better off you will be to get to heaven(polygamy)! I do not agree with polygamy!

    Um Yeah,
    I believe that the Bible it true scripture! In fact the ONLY true scripture! I believe this because there are many cases to back it up. Such as, prophecy that has come true, and the fact that there is archeological discoveries that back up the bible!
    Ya, you might say that the book of mormon has these gold plates that it comes from. But, where are they now a days??? No where to be found! Right?
    BUT… the Bible has “the dead sea scrolls,” which date back to hundreds of years before Christ!!!
    ALSO… I would like to point out that you stated that the book of mormon is an “estimate” of Christ’s… an estimate is something that your not sure is right. Such as, a math estimate of 22.9 times 11.2. The estimate of that would not be correct!
    AND… what if its not true (which I believe it is not!)? Then I would waste valuable time reading a false book, while I could be focusing on the right book, THE BIBLE!


  205. Wow Squid. I thought better of you. The ignorance is really shining through now. You really know little to nothing about our religion. You are just spouting stuff that you found on Anti-Mormon websites or stuff that you heard from your pastor. You should watch where your education is coming from. You should also wonder about their motives.

    I wish I had more time to elucidate. Maybe later.


  206. Also, I’m pretty sure that Um Yeah meant Testament, not “estimate”.


  207. Rowley,
    Well, I patiently wait for your response! I am anticipating your well-thought-out response to my “accusations.” It is to my full understanding that those facts are true about mormon beliefs. And if its not, I will be glad to hear your views on them!


  208. To Squid:

    There are a couple of places where I disagree with you…and please note that I am not a Mormon.

    “It is, to my understanding, that mormons believe that if you are good enough on earth that you will reach the 3rd level of heaven (which I might add, I do not believe in the “levels of heaven”). And when you reach this 3rd level of heaven you will become a God, just like GOD. This goes directly against the bible in 2 ways. In 1 way, it goes against the first commandment!!! It is also the first sin in the bible, that was committed by Adam and Eve!”

    The Bible does in fact teach that there are three heavens, though it never teaches that there are levels to any one heaven. The Bible refers to the Earth’s atmosphere as the first heaven, outerspace as the second heaven, and the dwelling place of YHVH as the third heaven.

    One of the most telling pseudo-couplets of Mormon theology is:

    “As man is, God once was.
    As God is, man may become.”

    This is, for a Christian, a direct assault on the nature and sovereignty of God.

    “It seems to me that mormons believe that you can get to heaven by the things that you do on earth. Such as, the more wives you have the better off you will be to get to heaven(polygamy)! I do not agree with polygamy!”

    Mormons do believe that one is exalted into whatever level of heaven he gets based on what one has done in this life. I am currently in a discussion with several Mormon apologists and have found that there are at least 18 different things that a Mormon must do while on Earth in order to enter the highest level of exaltation.

    You have a slight misunderstanding of polygamy, I believe. Instead of the more wives one has the better off he will be in getting to heaven, it should say once he gets to heaven. Also, polygamy was officially stopped in 1890 and again in 1904 in order for Utah to become a state and the fed’l gov’t to not seize Mormon property. However, I have recently been informed that Mormon men are allowed to be sealed to multiple women in the Temples but will only have one wife while on Earth…sort of a secret polygamy.

    Shalom and God bless.


  209. Squid,

    It is very difficult to address your concerns about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon when you never state them. Saying “it doesn’t add up” is a little vague. Maybe you should email JD so he can give you some anti-mormon propaganda to throw back at us.

    It is also difficult to address your concerns about prophets. Perhaps you could come up with a specific concern I could address. The complaint that my example is not good enough is a little lame. Are you suggesting that God cannot control the weather? You might want to brush up on your Bible a little bit before you throw that out.

    If you base your beliefs of the Bible on the existence of the Dead Sea Scrolls and archiological digs, I hope that one day your faith will grow and you will have a spiritual confimation that it is scripture. Until you do, you will not understand what it is to have a spiritual confirmation of the Book of Mormon.

    JD,

    I don’t think we need your help explaining our doctrine. Especially when you interject your superficial knowledge that is false. You might want to spend more time explaining your own “doctrine” to squid as he does not appear to understand his own beliefs very well.


  210. To Ed:

    Well, considering that you did not discuss the same things that I discussed, it seems that you do need my help explaining your doctrine. Also, if you are going to make a wide-sweeping statement like my superficial knowledge of your doctrine is false, could you please tell me which part of what I said was false so that I won’t make the same mistake again? Also, if you notice, my first comment was directed at his misunderstanding of Biblical teaching, not Mormon teaching.

    Shalom.


  211. JD,

    I am still waiting for you to provide the facutal evidence to support your previous false statements, but here goes.

    Your quote is not “mormon theology.” It is not doctrine in our church.

    And your insinuation that we practice “secret polygamy” is a distortion. The only instance where men are sealed to more than one women is after the death of a spouse, the man remarries a woman who has not been previouly sealed. It is not secret. We believe that it is a necessary ordinace for the woman who has not had the opportunity in the past.

    And no, I do not need your help explaining our doctrine. If your implulse tells you to discuss something, you can pretty much bet that it is either not important or that you feel adding lies, distortions, and insinuations will cloud the truth.


  212. “I am still waiting for you to provide the facutal evidence to support your previous false statements, but here goes.”

    Oh…I had asked you whether or not that is what you referring to when you said that I had “blatantly lied” and you still haven’t responded. So are those two things the places where I “blatantly lied”?

    “Your quote is not “mormon theology.” It is not doctrine in our church.”

    Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 teaches that the God of Mormons is a perfected and glorified man. Are you saying that that is not part of your theology and doctrines?

    “And your insinuation that we practice “secret polygamy” is a distortion. The only instance where men are sealed to more than one women is after the death of a spouse, the man remarries a woman who has not been previouly sealed. It is not secret. We believe that it is a necessary ordinace for the woman who has not had the opportunity in the past.”

    I am pretty sure that a Mormon told me on another discussion board that polygamy is still practiced in the temple as men can be sealed to more than one woman at a time (but still have marital relations with only one woman). By saying that it was secret may be sort of misleading on my part. What I meant by that word is that the ceremonies that occur in the temple are not to be discussed with non-Mormons (and I won’t try to pressure you into discussing them). Also, if my memory served me correctly (right now I am searching the discussion board to see if I can find the place where he told me about it), the ceremony would also be secret in the manner that the man and woman would not be married in the eyes of the government but still married for all time and eternity.

    “And no, I do not need your help explaining our doctrine. If your implulse tells you to discuss something, you can pretty much bet that it is either not important or that you feel adding lies, distortions, and insinuations will cloud the truth.”

    I am sorry that you feel that my words are either (a)unimportant, or (b)full of lies. My goal here is to discover the truth of what Mormons believe. The only way that I know how to do that is to present your beliefs as I understand them, and if my understanding is wrong, for you to correct them. Sorry.

    Shalom.


  213. Here is our doctrine regarding God the Father taken straight from lds.org

    God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).

    D&C 130:22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

    Your quote is not doctrine although some have conjectured that is may be true. Nevertheless, it is not doctrine.

    What you were told about polygamy in the temple is false.

    Polygamy info from lds.org

    The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. At certain times and for His specific purposes, God, through His prophets, has directed the practice of plural marriage (sometimes called polygamy), which means one man having more than one living wife at the same time. In obedience to direction from God, Latter-day Saints followed this practice for about 50 years during the 1800s but officially ceased the practice of such marriages after the Manifesto was issued by President Woodruff in 1890. Since that time, plural marriage has not been approved by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any member adopting this practice is subject to losing his or her membership in the Church.

    I think this is pretty clear.


  214. “Your quote is not doctrine although some have conjectured that is may be true. Nevertheless, it is not doctrine.”

    Would it be safe to call it Mormon teaching or Mormon thought or something like that since it is not doctrine?

    “What you were told about polygamy in the temple is false.”

    I am wondering why someone would have told me something like that, do you have any idea? Maybe they just didn’t understand what the sealings involving widowers were?

    “The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. At certain times and for His specific purposes, God, through His prophets, has directed the practice of plural marriage (sometimes called polygamy), which means one man having more than one living wife at the same time. In obedience to direction from God, Latter-day Saints followed this practice for about 50 years during the 1800s but officially ceased the practice of such marriages after the Manifesto was issued by President Woodruff in 1890. Since that time, plural marriage has not been approved by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any member adopting this practice is subject to losing his or her membership in the Church.

    I think this is pretty clear.”

    The only problem that I have with that is that it doesn’t mention polygamy being practiced unofficially until 1904 when a second manifesto was published.

    Thanks for clearing those things up.

    Shalom.


  215. I offer my sincere condolences to all Mormons as they grieve the passing of their beloved prophet and President. I believe Hinckley to have been a man of outstanding character, faith, and conviction.

    Shalom.


  216. Thank you very much JD.


  217. Who is Bill Keller? I think he maybe the single most evil dishonest evangelical I have ever come across. I hope you will all join me in denouncing him. Pastor Haisty is definitely misinformed, but this guy is just hateful.

    http://www.liveprayer.com/today.cfm


  218. Here is the child of Evangelical lies and distortions about Mormonism.

    http://www.godhatesfags.com/written/fliers/20080128_gordon-hinckley-funeral.pdf

    I hope you’re proud.


  219. Oh my… We believe that Marry conceived the savior through a miracle, and not that God himself came down and had sex with her.

    Stop misleading people, and preach the truth.

    And by the way, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that he has atoned for the sins of the world and we are saved only through faith in him. We differ in that we believe that by Works and Faith are we saved (see James 2:17.) How is this not Christian?


  220. I like the quote from Roger Williams, founder of the First Baptist Church.

    “There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking. (Picturesque America, p. 502.)”

    Sounds, eerily familiar to what God told Joseph Smith. Do you think that the founding of the Baptist churches and other Protestant sects could have been God’s work to prepare for the Restoration of his church? Not to mention the founding of this nation being a preparation in that it provided religious liberty and tolerance to all.

    I think Roger would be very ashamed of what level Baptists have descended to.


  221. To Kit:

    From my discussions with Mormons, I have found that there are 18 (or 19 if one is a woman) different things that must be done before obtaining the highest level of exaltation, what is comparable in the Mormon religion to Christian salvation. Could you please show me in the Bible where there are requirements besides faith for salvation? Please note, James 2:17 teaches the exact same thing that Paul taught — faith is proven by works.

    Shalom.


  222. Dr. JD,

    You are confused. Mormons believe that you are “saved” in the same way that Baptists do. Any differences are purely a matter of semantics. Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind through four important principles. 1) Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. 2) Repentance. 3) Baptism by immersion. 4) Laying on of Hands to receive the Holy Ghost.

    Do not confuse exaltation with salvation. They are different matters entirely.


  223. To Brian:

    So, the temple work is unnecessary for Mormons to perform? You don’t have to be annointed and endowed, receiving a new name? Even if those four things are what is required for salvation, then Mormon teaching is still different than Christian salvation. Christian salvation is built upon faith and faith alone. Mormon teaching on repentance, at least of what I have heard, is that a person must repent of ALL their sins specifically; general repentance — as done in Christianity — is pointless. Furthermore, the Bible consistently teaches that while spiritual baptism is a requirement, water baptism is not. Also, the Bible contains several examples where people received the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands.

    As far as exaltation and salvation being completely different matters, I would agree that they are in Mormonism. However, salvation in Christianity means living forever in the presence of the Father; a definition that is only comparable with Mormon exaltation into the highest kingdom of heaven.

    Shalom.


  224. I think Mike Huckabee is so very genuine. I just love this guy. He ministered to me so very much on his web site through his various TV interviews. I pray that the Lord continues to speak through this man during this time for His purposes. I am so very excited to be excited about a Presidential candidate– finally. Mike is the real deal! I hope to shake his hand someday and tell him so. May God give him strength to carry on the good fight. He is in for a hard and long road ahead if he is elected President. God bless this man for going to the front lines for this country. He reminds me of the early Presidents of the US, who were Christian men of great integrity. When troubles come, and they will, I want Mike there to comfort us and guide us through the trials ahead, as he will be leaning on GOD.

    I just don’t feel good in my sprit about Mitt. I find him smug and not genuine in the way he carries himself. I’m sure he is a good man, father and husband, and even maybe he was a good business man. But, I don’t want a President who believes in a false god and religion. I want a President who gets down on his knees, humbly, and prays to GOD FOR WISDOM and does not lean on his own understanding to lead this nation forward. And MIKE HUCKABEE is the ONLY man I see capable of doing this humble action as the leader of the USA. God Bless You Mike.

    Blessings, Love & PEACE, Christine


  225. JD,

    I disagree that the Bible teaches that spiritual baptism is required, water baptism is not. Matthew 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Also, all of Heavenly Father’s children have the right to receive the Holy Spirit, not just one religion or religious group. In fact, the Holy Ghost is THE testifier of Jesus Christ and His gospel.

    Mormons believe that baptism by fire is the gift of the Holy Ghost, which means you MAY have the Holy Ghost with you when worthy of it. Thus the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost.

    I believe that you are still mixing Salvation and Exaltation together in your response. All men are saved through Jesus Christ. You may say that “Christian” belief is that Salvation is living in the presence of the Father forever, but I don’t think that most Christians can comprehend this when they can’t even explain what God, or the Father is. The whole trinity thing is a ball of wax, or an egg, yet is or isn’t spirit form. Jesus Christ, Stephen, and Joseph Smith all have given accounts that would help us know that God the Father, His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate beings. You have heard all the accounts before, but I do believe that if the trinity was all wrapped into 1, Jesus would have told the Romans, “I forgive you.” Instead of saying, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Also, the Lord’s Prayer…”Pray unto the Father….” He didn’t say, “Pray unto me in my name.” When he was baptized, the voice came down from Heaven. Why didn’t it come from his own mouth? I have read Stephen’s account in a bible where there was a note that explained that when Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of God, it was a heretic teaching or doctrine. Who was Stephen, a criminal?

    It is clear (to me) that we are saved through Jesus Christ. I know you don’t believe the multiple levels of Heaven doctrine from previous posts,(I Cor. 15:40-42) but I believe in the vision Joseph Smith revealed in Doctrine & Covenants 76, which supports I Cor. 15:40-42. Doctrine & Covenants section 76 is very specific in what the Lord revealed to him and Sidney Rigdon on Feb. 16, 1932 in Hiram, Ohio.

    I understand also that you don’t believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Well, Sidney Rigdon never denied that he experienced and saw the same vision, even though he left the LDS church. In fact, he had plenty opportunities to discount his word and deny his testimony and the validity of the vision. After Joseph Smith was martyred, he (Sidney) returned to Nauvoo and campaigned to be the next prophet. He ended up leaving Nauvoo never to return again, and probably left on not very good terms.


  226. JD,

    Just to clarify, I believe that Stephen was not a criminal, and that he did see Jesus Christ on the right hand of God. It was the version of Bible that I read that added the note.


  227. JD,

    Dave makes excellent points, but I would also add Christ’s intercessory prayer while in the Garden of Gethsemane (John 17) as insight into the nature of the godhead. He prays to his father that his disciples may be one even as he and the Father are one. I would post the verse but you should really read the whole chapter. Christ also references the time when he was with the Father before the world was made.

    Now clearly this means that he is praying for them to be one in purpose not one in essence. I’m pretty sure God is not some kind of soul-gobbling amoeba.

    Here’s another Roger Williams quote about the requirements for salvation “The two first principles and foundations of true religion, or worship of the true God in Christ, are repentance from dead works and faith toward God, before the doctrines of baptism or washing and the laying on of hands, which continue the ordinances and practises of worship; the want of which I conceive is the bane of millions of souls in England and all other nations professing to be Christian nations, who are brought by public authority to baptism and fellowship with God in ordinances of worship, before the saving work of repentance and a true turning to God.”

    Those Baptist founders knew their stuff. Too bad the 350+ years since have diluted their original beliefs.

    Christ told Nicodemus, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5

    Baptism and Laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost are saving ordinances.

    When I’ve talked to Baptists they always say that salvation is living in the presence of Christ forever and you know what? They are right on the mark. That’s exactly where they will be if they live good lives. Of course, if you believe in the creeds that were developed by the vote of uninspired theologians more than 300 years after Christ lived and died on this earth; then, you will have a hard time separating God and Christ into the separate beings that they actually are. Likewise, you would have a hard time fathoming a celestial glory in the presence of God.


  228. A BREATH OF FRESH AIR is what Mike Huckabee is- yes I will be voting for him on Tuesday in California and so will many, many others I know who are friends and others in our church community. He would make a fine President, much like many of our early Presidents in the US, so many of them were Christians also. He has the experience with many year of being a Governor and also many years of working as a pastor and helping the poor, troubled and common working class folks. He is well balanced. I think about the troubles that the USA will face, and there will be many, in the years that will come. And the man who I want to be there as a leader for me, well, it’s Mike. I think he will comfort and lead us wisely. Any man that looks beyond his own wisdom and understanding to lead his country, as Mike does, is a man I want to look to as President of the US. He is leaning on God for his wisdom and counsel and not his own understanding.

    GOD BLESS MIKE HUCKABEE!

    - Christine Rene’e


  229. YES I AGREE, MIKE IS A BREATH OF FRESH AIR. You are right Christine and all those who are voting for MIKE HUCKABEE. I pray that he wins. He is a good man who is very genuine and standing by his beliefs. He will make a solid President that we can count on. I hope he wins and will be our next President. The USA will be a better nation for it.

    YES, God Bless Huckabee!!!! -DJC


  230. Come on, be realistic. Huck has no chance. His credentials are limited to backwoods Arkansas politics.

    The only people who are voting for him are mindless evangelicals who think that just because he was a minister he would make a good president.

    He has limited education and his track record in Arkansas is horrid. Raise taxes. Suck up to illegals. Release the murderers.

    Let’s face it, he would be the biggest presidential disaster since Carter. Why would republicans want to vote for another Jimmy Carter?


  231. A vote for Huckabee is just a vote for McCain. If you want a liberal adulterer leading our great nation, go ahead and vote for Huck.


  232. Okay, I have read a lot of posts here that are bashing on the pastor’s seven points as bigoted, biased, etc, etc.

    Let me add a few things that people are dancing around and will not look at. I realize this is a long post. But I believe in showing the primary texts for my arguments so that no one can say I took something out of context or made something up, etc.
    So, fellow bloggers, please consider these points:

    1) MITT ROMNEY AND JOHN MCCAIN ARE NOT PRO-LIFE. HUCKABEE IS!

    I don’t know about you, but the idea that you have a leader who is willing to compromise on something as vital as the murder of 50 MILLION BABIES upsets me! Doesn’t it upset you????? 50 MILLION DEAD KIDS!!!!
    How can any decent Christian ignore that?
    If we vote for someone who is not solidly pro-life because “Huckabee is a backwoods politician”, then what are we saying to God? How are we going to explain our “sophistication” to GOD? David was a hick from the sticks. So was Jesus Christ. Is that any excuse for supporting unrighteousness?

    You might say that, “Abortion is just one issue.” Yep, it is. It is the one issue that MOST DISPLEASES ALMIGHTY GOD!

    Romney says he is pro life now. Then why is he STILL supporting Stem Cell Research? Don’t believe me?
    Then go to mormonsagainstromney.blogspot.com/
    I will not vote for someone who supports the war on the unborn. Period. If you can’t respect life then I suspect you.

    2) RACISM
    The Mormon church supported racism in their doctrines until the 1970’s. (See white and delightsome for reference here folks)
    Some people, including myself who lives in an area where it is 60% Mormon as a person of color would disagree with how much THAT has changed. But nevertheless, the LDS church has changed its official teaching on the priesthood for people of color.

    But where was Romney during the debate on this issue?

    Here is what MORMONS AGAINST ROMNEY report:
    It is understandable that a young man, raised in a prominent Mormon household, would not want to rock the boat by openly criticizing LDS policy. However, if he truly, and deeply, believed in civil rights and came from a family that championed civil rights, as he now claims, why was his, and the Romney family’s, voice not part of the chorus of those prominent LDS members who called for an end to the policy?
    Romney has painted himself into another rhetorical corner. Is he lying about how committed to civil rights he and his family were in the 1960s or was he deceptive in going out for 30 months to recruit people to a Church he believed had a racist policy (and at a time when racism was at the forefront of the national debate)?

    THAT’s what MORMONS are bringing up! This man has the backbone of whipped Jello. He says he cried when he heard the news. That’s nice. But where was he when his own church was standing up on this issue. NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN PUBLIC. Trust him with consistent moral decisions? No Way!

    3) And what about Marriott?
    Mitt attacks pornography despite his role with Marriott, which sold in-room smut

    ALEXANDRIA, VA – In a move rich with irony, Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign released a new television advertisement decrying “the culture that surrounds our kids today,” despite the fact that Romney served on the board of Marriott International, which generated tens of millions of dollars in revenue through in-room pornography services at its hotels.

    In stark contrast with Romney’s role at Marriott, which brought him over $100,000 per year, Senator Sam Brownback lead the fight against indecency and asked the hotel chain to stop offering pornography in its rooms. rom.jpg

    In a 2004 letter to J.W. Marriott, Jr., the chairman and CEO of Marriott International, Brownback wrote: “I am concerned, however, by a recent CBS report which cites the fact that in-room pornography generates approximately half of total hotel pay-per-view revenue in the United States, approximately $250 million annually. …

    Businesspeople and families should not be exposed to a pornography-friendly environment when they seek rest and relaxation at hotels while traveling away from home, nor should they be victims of suggestive advertising for porn while browsing a pay-per-view menu. I write to ask that you consider ending Marriott’s complicity in this assault on individuals, families, and society. … The children and families of America thank you.”Pro-family leader Phil Burress, founder of Citizens for Community Values, commented on Romney’s role:“

    Mitt Romney apparently turned a blind-eye to the obscene, hard-core pornography offered in Marriott hotels. Instead, Romney and Marriott International chose to earn millions of dollars with such a morally objectionable business practice. For those who want a proven, consistent, pro-family leader in the White House, Mitt Romney is an unacceptable choice.”

    Once again he says no thing and does another. He was on their board. Why didn’t he do anything on this issue? Or did he have a change of heart on this issue too? LOL

    4) THE MORMON PROPHECY AND MORMON BELIEFS

    Do the people on this site know about Kolob?
    Let me help out those who don’t:
    In the Latter Day Saint movement, Kolob is a star or planet mentioned in the Book of Abraham as being nearest to the throne or residence of God. The literal existence and the exact nature of Kolob is a controversial topic in Latter Day Saint movement theology, as is the Book of Abraham, which has not been canonized by the Community of Christ and several other denominations. However, the idea of Kolob has had an influence in the theology and culture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church).

    So what? Well, here’s how that fits into Mormon theology:

    “If You Could Hie to Kolob” is a Latter Day Saint hymn that was written by William Wines Phelps, a prominent early Mormon. The music is taken from a well-known folk tune known as “Dives and Lazarus”. It is hymn number 284 in the hymnal for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    The hymn reflects doctrines unique to Mormonism, such as the eternal nature of spirit (including man’s spirit) and matter. It also conveys doctrines elaborated by Joseph Smith, Jr., the first Latter-day Saint prophet, about the plurality of gods and eternal progression. The word hie means To go quickly; hasten.

    Lyrics

    If you could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye,
    And then continue onward with that same speed to fly,
    Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity,
    Find out the generation “If You Could Hie to Kolob” is a Latter Day Saint hymn that was written by William Wines Phelps, a prominent early Mormon. The music is taken from a well-known folk tune known as “Dives and Lazarus”. It is hymn number 284 in the hymnal for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    The hymn reflects doctrines unique to Mormonism, such as the eternal nature of spirit (including man’s spirit) and matter. It also conveys doctrines elaborated by Joseph Smith, Jr., the first Latter-day Saint prophet, about the plurality of gods and eternal progression. The word hie means To go quickly; hasten.

    [edit] Lyrics

    If you could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye,
    And then continue onward with that same speed to fly,
    Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity,
    Find out the generation where Gods began to be?

    Or see the grand beginning, where space did not extend?
    Or view the last creation, where Gods and matter end?
    Methinks the Spirit whispers, “No man has found ‘pure space,’
    Nor seen the outside curtains, where nothing has a place.”

    The works of God continue, and worlds and lives abound;
    Improvement and progression have one eternal round.
    There is no end to matter; there is no end to space;
    There is no end to spirit; there is no end to race.

    There is no end to virtue; there is no end to might;
    There is no end to wisdom; there is no end to light.
    There is no end to union; there is no end to youth;
    There is no end to priesthood; there is no end to truth.

    There is no end to glory; there is no end to love;
    There is no end to being; there is no death above.
    There is no end to glory; there is no end to love;
    There is no end to being; there is no death above.
    Or see the grand beginning, where space did not extend?
    Or view the last creation, where Gods and matter end?
    Methinks the Spirit whispers, “No man has found ‘pure space,’
    Nor seen the outside curtains, where nothing has a place.”

    The works of God continue, and worlds and lives abound;
    Improvement and progression have one eternal round.
    There is no end to matter; there is no end to space;
    There is no end to spirit; there is no end to race.

    There is no end to virtue; there is no end to might;
    There is no end to wisdom; there is no end to light.
    There is no end to union; there is no end to youth;
    There is no end to priesthood; there is no end to truth.

    There is no end to glory; there is no end to love;
    There is no end to being; there is no death above.
    There is no end to glory; there is no end to love;
    There is no end to being; there is no death above.

    That’s in the LDS Hymnal. The last time I remember the Bible does not teach that we are Gods. I thought that the Christian Creeds, so disregarded by the LDS Church as false, teach that a belief in plural Gods is a heresy.

    So, do the people on this site who are LDS and who are calling the folks who disagree with the 7 Points brought up on this site believe:
    Exaltation means to live the life that God lives and to obtain the co-equal position of godhood. It is the same as eternal life which is to live God’s life who is Eternal Man. Exaltation includes having the power, dominion, and the power of eternal increase or having eternal children just like the Father in heaven. Although the exact meaning of this has not been defined, most Latter-day Saints speculate that this signifies they may enter the Celestial Kingdom and dwell in God the Father’s presence. In the Doctrine & Covenants is found a scripture that describes those who are exalted will become gods.[1] Though Exaltation is not limited to Latter-day Saints, saving ordinances are believed to be prerequisite for all who enter the Celestial Kingdom. To enter the presence of the Father signifies that one has become a co-inheritor with Jesus thus becoming like the Father and the Son.

    Is this what Doctor JD, Dave and everyone else here believes about salvation? Because that is what the LDS Church believes.

    And if Romney is a good Mormon, that’s what he believes too. YE SHALL BE AS GODS.

    Now add that idea to this one:

    an article in the BYU Studies indicates that Smith did give such a discourse and that it was copied down by a faithful Mormon:

    Since, by 1840, there was not yet a procedure in the Church for systematically reporting all of Joseph Smith’s speeches, many of his addresses were never recorded, and others were preserved only unofficially in the personal writings of lay members.3 In addition, the longhand reports recorded at the time were subject to inherent limitations because of the absence among Church members of sufficiently developed shorthand skills to permit verbatim reporting during Joseph Smith’s lifetime. This accounts for the existence of some reports of Joseph Smith speeches that are not referred to in the Prophet’s History. The Martha Jane Knowlton report of July 1840 is of this genre. …

    The July 1840 context suggests that Joseph Smith’s comments about the U.S. Constitution were given not long after his return from Washington, D.C., where his appeal for redress for the wrongs heaped upon his people in Missouri had fallen upon deaf ears. The address also gives significant insight into the marvelous anticipations and hopes the Prophet had for Nauvoo in its beginning phase. But, as one looks at the city from a later perspective, it is evident that the prophecies about Nauvoo, like Jackson County before it, were contingent upon human conditions and failings. … The discourse as reported by Martha Jane Knowlton is as follows:

    “A few Item[s] from a discourse delivered by Joseph Smith July 19 - 1840….

    “We shall build the Zion of the Lord in peace untill the servants of that Lord shall begin to lay the foundation of a great and high watch Tower and then shall they begin to say within themselves, what need hath my Lord of this tower seeing this is a time of peace &c. Then the Enemy shall come as a thief in the night and scatter the servants abroad. When the seed of these 12 Olive trees are scattered abroad they will wake up the Nations of the whole Earth. Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff up[on] which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction.” (The Historians Corner, BYU Studies, Vol. 19, No. 3, p. 391-392)

    Another reference to this prophecy is found in the book, Words of Joseph Smith:

    The History of the Church account is an amalgamation of the reports in the Joseph Smith Diary and the Nauvoo Neighbor. The report by Levi Richards is here published for the first time. A reminiscent account of this discourse by James Burgess contains the essential details found in the other three accounts published here, and adds that the “Constitution and Government would hang by a brittle thread.”

    In the month of May 1843. Several miles east of Nauvoo. The Nauvoo Legion was on parade and review. At the close of which Joseph Smith made some remarks upon our condition as a people and upon our future prospects contrasting our present condition with our past trials and persecutions by the hands of our enemies. Also upon the constitution and government of the United States stating that the time would come when the Constitution and Government would hang by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the Latter day Saints will step forth and save it.

    General Scott and part of his staff on the American Army was present on the occasion.

    I James Burgess was present and testify to the above (James Burgess Notebook, Church Archives). (Ehat & Cook, Words of Joseph Smith, 6 May 1843 Note, p. 279)

    In the book, Discourses of Brigham Young, an edited collection of President Young’s sermons from the Journal of Discourses, we read:

    How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass. 12:204.

    When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon” Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. 2:182.

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT MITT ROMNEY SHOULD GO INTO THE OFFICE AS THE MOST POWERFUL MAN IN THE WORLD WITH THE MENTALITY THAT TEACHES HE IS A GOD IN THE MAKING WITH THE BACKGROUND PROPHECY THAT A MORMON AND MORMONISM IS DESTINED TO SAVE THE WORLD?

    I am not comfortable with those views. Are you?


  233. IS THIS OKAY?

    Dear Brothers and Sisters:

    Could someone please explain the following LDS Scriptures?
    Book of Mormon

    1. 1 Nephi 11:13 (Mary) “. . . she was exceedingly fair and white.”
    2. 1 Nephi 12:23 (Prophecy of Lamanites after Christ) “. . . became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.”
    3. 1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles) “. . . they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people [Nephites] before they were slain.”
    4. 2 Nephi 5:21 “. . . a sore cursing . . . as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”
    5. 2 Nephi 30:6 (Prophecy to Lamanites) “. . . scales of darkness shall begin to fall . . . they shall be a white and delightsome people.” (Changed to pure and delightsome in 1981)
    6. Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed) “. . .whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins. . .”
    7. Jacob 3:8-9 “. . .their skins will be whiter than yours . . . revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins . . .”
    8. Alma 3:6 “. . . skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion. . .”
    9. Alma 3:8 (Cursed) “. . .that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren . . .that they might not mix . . .”
    10. Alma 3:9 “. . . whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.”
    11. Alma 3:14 (Lamanites cursed) “. . . set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed. . .”
    12. Alma 3:19 (Amlicites cursed) “. . . brought upon themselves the curse …”
    13. Alma 23:18 “. . . [Lamanites] did open a correspondence with them [Nephites] and the curse of God did no more follow them.”
    14. 3 Nephi 2:14-16 “. . . Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites . . . became exceedingly fair . . .”
    15. 3 Nephi 19:25, 30 (Disciples) “. . . they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness . . . nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof . . . they were white, even as Jesus.”
    16. Mormon 5:15 (Prophecy about Lamanites) “. . .shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us . . .”
    17. Mormon 5:17 “They were once a delightsome people . . .”

    Pearl of Great Price

    1. Moses 7:8 “. . . a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan . . .”
    2. Moses 7:12 “. . . Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were [except] the people of Canaan, to repent . . .”
    3. Moses 7:22 “. . . for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them.”
    4. Abraham 1:21 “. . . king of Egypt [Pharaoh] was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.”
    5. Abraham 1:27 “. . . Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood . . .”

    As a good Mormon, does Romney believe these passages?
    Should we vote for someone who stands up every Sunday and says, “I believe that the Book of Mormon is True” when that means he believes these Scriptures to be true? That bothers me.


  234. Once again “Bishop” all these quotes are taken out of their proper context. It’s nothing we haven’t seen 100 times before from you and your ilk.

    I would be much more worried about Huckabee’s comments about changing the constitution to fit his religious views. Mormons have always supported the constitution. Even when our people were being raped and driven from their homes by state governments. We have never had any interest in forcing our religion on others via the government.

    For people of the southern baptist persuasion to preach about racism is very ironic in my opinion


  235. AN EVANGELICAL PASTOR IN UTAH?
    by Dr. Myke Crowder
    01/21/08 2008

    AN EVANGELICAL PASTOR IN UTAH?

    By Rev. Dr. Myke D. Crowder

    December 27, 2007

    How can an evangelical vote for a Mormon? Media organizations and pollsters have fixated on this question for much of this year, thanks to the presidential candidacy of former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney. So let me give my answer and then explain.

    As a minister with the Evangelical Church Alliance, America’s oldest association of evangelical clergy, I will cast my vote for Mitt Romney with full confidence in both his character and ability to lead our nation in the direction I believe we evangelicals can be comfortable with. Nothing rare here; I am hardly the first evangelical to voice support for this Mormon candidate for the highest office in the land.

    What might set me apart from most of my evangelical colleagues is this: I have spent the past two decades serving as a pastor just 18 miles north of the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City. I know a thing or two about voting for Mormons, as there is only rarely an alternative in this state which serves as world headquarters to the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints (LDS). Above all I have learned and confirmed that their values mirror ours as evangelicals, and voting for elected officials is more about values, character and policy than it is about religious affiliation. As syndicated columnist Cal Thomas, himself an evangelical, has written, “I care less where my ambulance driver attends church than that he knows the quickest way to the hospital.”

    Mormons account for 62 percent of the 2.5 million people living in Utah and hold virtually every elected office in the state. While some of my fellow evangelicals across the country have noted they could not vote for a Mormon, I have only voted this way for 21 years and have appreciated their conservative ideologies and policies as well as their strong commitment to the family values I hold dear. Perhaps this explains why Utahans are less likely than average Americans to smoke, abuse drugs, die of cancer, or give birth as a teenager. These are values evangelicals generally applaud, and attempt to model under an evangelical worldview. Our fight as evangelicals in the political arena is not against Mormons, who generally line up with our moral and social values and preferred policies, but with political and religious liberals who generally want to cleanse the public square of all faith and morality. In the battle for the traditional family in America, Mormons have been our friends for decades, not our enemies.

    Furthermore, despite fundamental doctrinal differences, Mormons have not been anti-evangelical (something that cannot be said even of all Southern Baptists), but have been very supportive of our ministry right here in their back yard. Our church has grown from 50 people to 2,600, and 700 students are enrolled in our Layton Christian Academy.

    The way some evangelical pastors talk about Mormons suggests they not only couldn’t vote for one; they couldn’t accept a call to a pulpit in Utah because of their disdain for this religion. What a shame! How do we expect non-evangelicals to vote for “one of our own” when we can’t exercise the same kind of intellectually-thoughtful support across the theological aisle? The “born again” Jimmy Carter wasn’t elected by evangelicals alone and neither will Mike Huckabee or anyone else be. Expecting what we won’t practice ourselves seems to me to smack of hypocrisy.

    Some worry a Mormon administration would not be friendly to evangelicals. Wrong. It was the city bishops who allowed us to use their gymnasiums when we were starting a Christian school and didn’t have such facilities yet. Elected Mormons like Senator Orrin Hatch, Rep. Rob Bishop, former governors Norm Bangerter and Mike Levett have all attended our church services and shared genuine enthusiasm for our ministries here. Their records of public service would make evangelicals proud in any state. In fact, contrary to some perceptions, the evangelical community in Utah has experienced tremendous growth while LDS membership has declined slightly.

    Voting for a Mormon does not validate the Mormon religion any more than a vote for John F. Kennedy validated the Catholic Church or a vote for Bill Clinton was an endorsement of the Southern Baptist Convention. Yet, what if tens of millions of non-evangelical Americans increasingly decided, “I would never vote for an evangelical; those people are narrow-minded hypocrites!” In other words, this primarily theological test works both ways and evangelicals may find ourselves on the short end of this analysis more often than we may already be.

    This is precisely why we must evaluate candidates for public office, and especially for president, not on the basis of their church attendance, but on character, integrity, values, their public life and private behavior, their families and their vision for our country. So, while an evangelical pastor and a Mormon businessman-governor-presidential candidate may seem like strange bedfellows, I assure you, we are political and values soul mates.

    Rev. Dr. Myke D. Crowder is Senior Pastor at Christian Life Center in Layton, Utah, and a member of the executive council for the National Clergy Council in Washington, DC.


  236. Thank you Myke Crowder.

    I’m glad there are people who can use their brain out there.


  237. Whatever happened to loving one another?


  238. Around noon today, Dr. Dobson talked to national talk-show host Dennis Prager. While he made it clear he was not endorsing anyone, he did say he would vote for former Gov. Mitt Romney — a Mormon — if he wins the Republican nomination:

    “My theology is very, very different, obviously, and I would not find myself in agreement with the ways he sees Scripture, and, of course, their own interpretation and extension of Scripture. I’m not in any way minimizing that; it’s a very important issue.

    “I think we’re facing such a point of crisis in our country, that we’re going to have to have the strongest leadership we can. And I think I could deal with that in the polling booth.”


  239. Ed,
    You say Mike has no chance. He is the underdog, yes, but a good, solid leader. Well, who do you want? Mitt or Hillary? Where are you standing Ed? A vote for HUCKABEE is a good vote! McCain isn’t so bad either. But, Mitt- so smug???? Hillary- oh dear?!!! Not saying you would vote for her Ed, but not sure why others are voting for her at all- deceived perhaps?


  240. Mitt might seem smug, but I have personally worked with a member of his family in a non political capacity. They are good people.

    I thought Huckabee might be a good candidate until he started using his anti-Mormon whisper campaign to win votes in the south. His pact to be McCain’s lapdog also disgusts me.


  241. Darren,
    Huck is only a good solid leader if you like raising taxes, tax payer funded college for illegals, and releasing murderers back out on the street.

    He admitted campaigning against Romney out of revenge on Glenn Beck show. What kind of leader is that?

    He is far from solid for conservative republicans.


  242. Before responding to Brian and Dave’s posts, I feel that it is important for me to explain my political position.

    Originally, I was a supporter of Romney because, due to his religion, I believed he would be a very socially conservative candidate. However, soon after talking about my intention to vote for him with one of my Mormon friends, I found that when he ran for Governor of Massachusetts, he was about as liberal in thought as Giuliani is, supporting abortion, rights for homosexuals, and embryonic stem cell research. Knowing that I could not support McCain or Giuliani because they were too liberal, I once again went searching for the candidate for whom I would vote. Though I did not agree with all of his stances, I found that Thompson was the one who agreed the most with my views. In fact, I had only heard Huckabee’s name mentioned a few times. I soon found that several of my friends were supporting Huckabee and they asked me to look into him and see if I liked him. I did what they asked and found that I did like him, but I was still torn between Huckabee and Thompson. It was not until the debates, when I saw Thompson’s unpresidential composure, that I lost support for Thompson and started supporting Huckabee. Since becoming a Huckabee supporter — a supporter of the only TRUE social conservative, my support for him has only grown and my dislike for Romney has also grown.
    As I have thought more and more about Romney’s change on social policies, I have decided that there are really two reasons for that change:

    1) He is easily led into changing his views, or

    2) He was either then or now intentionally misleading the public.

    Neither of these two reasons is very good. I want neither a president who is unstable in his political convictions nor a president that I cannot trust.

    After watching a few debates, I found that Romney more often than not would not provide direct answers to questions but would beat around the bush.

    Also, while Romney did not raise “taxes” while he was governor, he did raise fees — including doubling fees for marriage licences and firearm licences and quintipling the delivery fee for gasoline.

    Listening to him give several speeches on TV including the one on super Tuesday has convinced me that he is a fake. On Super Tuesday, he gave a speech in which he tried to sound emotional, but sounding so fake that I had to stop watching it.

    Of the fourteen times that taxes were raised under Huckabee, they were of the following order:

    -seven of them were on tobacco, alcohol, or clubs; taxes that I HIGHLY agree with.

    -one increased all income taxes, including corporation incomes, by 3%; a tax which I agree in part with but am neither completely against or for.

    -three increased the sales tax; this won’t matter very much if he becomes president since everyone will have to pay a 23% sales tax.

    -two of them increased taxes on gasoline by 3-4 cents; this is of a lesser degree than Romney’s increases on gasoline.

    -one increased driver’s license fees by $6; I think this is better than raising fees for marriages.

    Huckabee has also shown himself to be the only candidate that seems honest and upfront.

    While I have seen Romney and McCain fight each other over policy differences, I have yet to see Huckabee resort to such tactics.

    Shalom.


  243. To: rowley February 5, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    Once again I see that people refuse to read a post. I didn’t take ANYTHING out of context. I quoted at length what was written by over twenty LDS officials. The song Hie to Kolob is in the Mormon Hymnal. I didn’t put it there! I went to the library and pulled out the Hymnal and found it there. Mormons believe that the Father came from Kolob. They believe that if they strive hard enough that they will be Gods on their own planets. They believe that in the war between the spirits in heaven that certain members did not pass their test so well and they were born not being “white and delightsome.”

    Do I believe that’s true? Nope. And I have met some Mormons who believe that the Exaltation and White and Delightsome teachings are stupid. BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT THE LEADERS IN THE LDS CHURCH BELIEVE. And I can prove it because I went right to LDS sites and pulled the stuff I “took out of context” to run on this very site. If you don’t like what the Church teaches, then say so. But don’t try to say that’s not what they say or teach because it is. And if you readers think I am full of it, then I suggest you do what I did and read it for yourself!

    PS: Romney quit. PTL


  244. A Plea from Arkansas: Christian Conservatives Need to Take a Closer Look at Mike Huckabee’s Record as Governor
    by David Thompson

    As a conservative, evangelical, politically-active father of four in Arkansas I believe it is imperative for like-minded voters to become more familiar with the Mike Huckabee that just completed 10 years as our governor. I realize it’s sometimes hard to know what to believe during a campaign, so I’ve tried to include links to published stories, with most coming from years past when the events noted were taking place.

    For those who don’t know much about me, I attend a very conservative evangelical church in Central Arkansas that includes some other politically active members (past/present elected officials, lobbyists, candidates, etc), and our family currently homeschools our young children. Since 1996, I have been heavily involved in numerous Republican campaigns in Arkansas at all levels (even managing a few). I have also served as vice chairman of the Republican committee in Arkansas’ largest county. Yet I don’t know of a single person in these circles who is supporting Huckabee for President - although I do know many that are definitely not supporting him. Of course, this is anecdotal evidence, but consider that Huckabee just finished serving 10 years as our governor (and I am sure there are many Republicans in Arkansas who are supporting him - I just don’t know them). The truth is, most conservatives in Arkansas had written him off long before his Presidential bid.

    That said, here are 7 key reasons I cannot in good conscience support Mike Huckabee as the Republican nominee for President. This is based on his record here and is not a personal attack - I cannot speak for his or anybody’s motives. This list is not the result of intense research - it’s based on what I know and have experienced first-hand as a politically-active conservative Arkansan. It’s a list I could have given you 6 months or even 2 years ago. And I am not attempting to echo or give validity to any criticism he is now receiving nationally (and I don’t think ALL of it is fair). This is the Mike Huckabee we know.

    1) Governor Huckabee did lasting damage to the Republican Party and conservative movement in Arkansas.
    It’s hard to go after Democrats with a conservative message when your Republican Governor is out front releasing violent criminals, providing state benefits to illegals, pushing tax increases, expanding government spending and programs, and constantly walking an ethical tight-rope (more on each of these items to follow). This tied our party’s hands - many conservatives got frustrated, apathy set in, and some quit the fight. In addition:
    Huckabee insisted on having “his people” controlling the Republican Party campaign organizations that are set up in Arkansas each election cycle. He also insisted that his guy remain as state party chairman when party leaders planned to make a change. The mismanagement and ineptness that followed was so great that the Republican Party plunged into debt and the Federal Election Commission levied the the largest fine ever against a state political party following an investigation of the 2000 and 2002 election cycles. Obviously, this set back the Republican Party of Arkansas for years.
    When Huckabee started his first full term in 1998, Arkansas had just elected a Republican Governor, Lt. Governor, U.S. Senator, and 2 Republican Congressmen. Upon his leaving office in 2007, Republicans now hold no statewide offices, have no Republicans in the U.S.Senate, and only one Republican Congressman remains.
    It was often said during Huckabee’s term that Arkansas had 3 parties: Republican Party, Democrat Party, and the Huckabee Party.
    “He destroyed the conservative movement in Arkansas, and left the Republican Party in shambles.” - Phyllis Schlafly, president of the national Eagle Forum
    “His support for taxes split the Republican Party, and damaged our name brand.” – Former Arkansas State Representative Randy Minton (R)
    “I think if they knew [his record] it would totally de-energize them . . . his policies are just wrong.” – Former Arkansas State Senator Jim Holt’s (R) warning for conservatives around the country who think they have found their candidate in Mike Huckabee.
    2) Governor Huckabee’s non-stop clemencies continually hindered the work of criminal prosecutors and miffed Republicans. The numbers are staggering - over 1,000 clemencies and commutations of criminals as governor. Most people now are familiar with his push to parole convicted rapist Wayne Dumond, who went on to rape and murder a Missouri woman less than a year after his release. But there are many more troubling facts regarding Huckabee’s pattern of releasing violent criminals. While I cannot speak for Huckabee’s motives, it seems clear that he used poor judgment and was reckless with this executive power.
    Huckabee released more criminals than the combined total of every border state to Arkansas (made up of Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Tennessee, Mississippi, and Louisiana) - even though the combined population of these states is 16 times higher than Arkansas’. He also issued more than double the clemencies of his three predecessors combined.
    In many cases, Huckabee’s actions set loose savage criminals convicted of grisly murders over the passionate objections of prosecutors and victims’ families. This American Spectator story details some of these violent cases and explains the resulting difficulties they presented prosecutors working with other victims and their families.
    Huckabee and his appointees ignored the laws on the books, including the requirement to notify victims’ families and explain the reasons for those clemencies. He said to fully explain his reasoning would cost millions of dollars and “take money away from education and Medicaid and other things.”
    A 2004 investigative article by the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette found that prisoners had a better chance of being granted clemency by Huckabee if they had a mutual acquaintance, labored at the governor’s mansion under a prisoner work program, or a minister intervened on their behalf. Prosecutors say Huckabee was more inclined to release or reduce the sentences of prisoners if he had direct contact with them or was lobbied by those close to him.
    He often refused to learn the facts of the cases (sometimes not even reading the murderer’s own confession), made no attempt to get the police/prosecutor’s case files, or even get input from the victims’ families before making his decision.
    The clemency granted to one multiple DUI offender was likely tied to large political contributions from the offender’s family, including a soft money political organization run by Huckabee’s people.
    Good summary article
    “Last January, after Mississippi Gov. Ronnie Musgrove, a Democrat, lost his re-election bid, he issued 16 clemencies, and there was a huge outcry. That’s how many Huckabee averages per month.” – Arkansas Leader, (August 11, 2004)
    “He seems to believe that granting clemency to murderers, rapists, drunk drivers and other convicted criminals is a part of the everyday affairs of the governor’s office rather than something that he should approach cautiously and selectively.” – Robert Herzfeld, Saline County Prosecuting Attorney during Huckabee’s tenure
    “I know some of the people that Huckabee let loose have reoffended. Some of them we’ve caught and some of them we haven’t caught……I used to be able to tell the families of victims, in all good faith and candor, that it was a rare event when a governor commuted a sentence and let a murderer back out, or a rapist back out or a child molester back out. But I can’t do that anymore.” - Larry Jegley, longtime Pulaski County Prosecuting Attorney
    “I felt like Huckabee had more compassion for the murderers than he ever did for the victims.” - Elaine Colclasure, co-leader of the Central Arkansas chapter of Parents of Murdered Children.
    3) Governor Huckabee’s pattern was to ignore immigration laws, often in the name of Christianity.
    Huckabee opposed immigration enforcement as governor on a number of fronts. Immigration enforcement groups call Huckabee’s record on immigration “a disaster” and reference him as they guy who “scares the heck” out of them.
    In 2001, Huckabee’s human services liaison Robert Trevino pushed for legislation to provide driver’s licenses for illegals. It was understood by legislators that he acted with Huckabee’s blessing.
    In 2001, Huckabee opposed a measure to require proof of citizenship to vote.
    In 2005, Huckabee supported a bill that offered illegal immigrants in-state tuition rates and made them eligible for the same merit-based scholarships to Arkansas state colleges and universities as legal citizens. The bill would have violated federal law and was not enacted by the legislature.
    In 2005, he opposed a bill that denied some state benefits to illegals and required proof of citizenship to vote (patterned after Arizona’s Prop 200 that has been successful in curtailing illegal immigration in that state). In this story, Huckabee called the measure “un-American….inflammatory….race-baiting and demagoguery.” He added that the bill “inflames those who are racist and bigots and makes them think there’s a real problem. But there’s not.” He then singled out State Senator Jim Holt, also an openly professing Christian, saying, “I drink a different kind of Jesus juice.”
    In 2005, Huckabee criticized federal agents for a recent crackdown on illegals, saying that it wasn’t fair to the innocent family members of those targeted in the operation. (No word on whether he also opposes raids on other law-breakers who might also have innocent family members affected by the fruits of their illegal activity.)
    In 2005, Huckabee promoted an “open door” policy on immigration as he addressed the League of United Latin American Citizens (LULAC) national convention in Little Rock. LULAC is a left-leaning group that opposes virtually all measures of immigration enforcement.
    “He was an absolute disaster on immigration as governor. Every time there was any enforcement in his state, he took the side of the illegal aliens.” - Roy Beck, president of NumbersUSA, a group that played a major role in rallying the phone calls that helped defeat this year’s Senate immigration bill.
    “I would hope he could be trusted to secure the borders, but given his track record in Arkansas, I don’t see the conservative he has portrayed himself to be in Iowa.” - Jake Files, a former Arkansas state representative and current chairman of the Sebastian County Republican Party

    4) Governor Huckabee was no friend to fiscal conservatives in Arkansas.
    Huckabee’s record on taxes, government spending, and growing government programs was miserable. Basically, when the economy got tough, Huckabee expected families like mine to tighten our budgets in order to help state government meet its spending whims.
    In 2003, Huckabee called a special session of the legislature to push for a tax increase to make up for spending shortfalls. This led to his signing HB1039, an across the board income tax and tobacco tax increase. Huckabee even refused to consider a Republican proposal to cut spending and use general improvement funds (i.e., legislative pork) to make up for the budget shortfall. Ironically, the same day Huckabee was practically begging the Arkansas legislature to raise taxes (here’s the video), President Bush was also in Little Rock to push for his tax cut plan. (Note: When asked about this video recently, Huckabee gave a misleading response to Fox News, blaming his tax increase plea on a court order. This prompted State Representative Johnny Key, the current Republican Leader in the Arkansas House, to send out a letter correcting the accuracy of Huckabee’s statement.)
    If that weren’t enough, Huckabee called a 2nd special legislative session in 2003 to pass a nearly one-cent state sales tax increase. The measure also expanded the sales tax to include previously exempted services (for more information and context, see reason #6 below).
    During Huckabee’s term, Arkansas showed a net tax increase of $505 million, and the average Arkansan’s tax burden grew from $1,969 to $2,902. Governor Huckabee raised more taxes in 10 years in office than Bill Clinton did in his 12 years.
    During Huckabee’s 10 years as governor, state spending more than doubled (from $6.6 billion to $16.1 billion), higher education and public schools got big increases, as did social services. Meanwhile, the state added about 8,000 full-time workers to its payroll during that period, a 19% increase (according to the Bureau of Legislative Research).
    The conservative Cato Institute gave Huckabee an “F” for his final term as governor on its Fiscal Policy Report Card, saying, “Huckabee’s leadership has left taxpayers in Arkansas much worse off.” His grade was lower than 15 of the 21 Democrat Governors. His overall grade as governor was a D.
    “The main reason for the drop was his insistence on raising taxes at almost every turn throughout his final term.” – Cato Institute explaining why Huckabee had dropped from a “D” to an “F” on their Fiscal Policy Report Card.
    “[Huckabee] says he’s pro-family. If you’re raising taxes on the families of Arkansas, causing wives to go out and get jobs to make ends meet, that’s not pro-family.” - Former Arkansas State Representative Randy Minton (R)
    “In the past, he blamed Democrats for raising taxes…We voted for them, but he proposed them.” - Arkansas State Senator John Paul Capps, a Democrat
    5) Huckabee left a long trail of ethics questions while Governor of Arkansas
    This is an area where I think Huckabee does receive some unfair criticism. Some of the ethics charges against him were frivolous and politically motivated. However, it has been concerning for some time just how much the governor accepted in gifts and how he was seemingly always pushing ethical limits.
    During his tenure, Huckabee accepted 314 gifts valued overall at more than $150,000, according to documents filed with the Arkansas’ Secretary of State office.
    The Huckabees set up wedding registries at local department stores as Mike was leaving office – even though they had been married for 30 years. State ethics laws prohibited Huckabee from receiving gifts of more than $100……but there was an exception for wedding gifts.
    Judicial Watch, a non-partisan group dedicted to fighting government corruption, listed Huckabee among their Ten Most Wanted Corrupt Politicians of 2007. Huckabee was one of only three Republican politicians to make the list.
    6) Huckabee’s education record shows him to be an advocate of the “status quo”
    The New Hampshire chapter of the National Education Association (NEA) has endorsed Hillary Clinton and Mike Huckabee for the upcoming Primary elections. This is the first time in memory that they have recommended a Republican (in 2004 they endorsed Howard Dean). They likely chose Huckabee because:
    Huckabee has consistently opposed virtually all proposals for education reform, including school choice vouchers.
    The former president of Eagle Forum of Arkansas said Huckabee “continued the Hillary Clinton education plan” as our governor.
    When the Arkansas Supreme Court ruled that Arkansas’ public school funding was “inequitable,” Huckabee took the ruling as a mandate to raise taxes in order to once again increase school funding…which he did. (To his credit, however, he also used the opportunity to consolidate some of the school districts in the state - although rural legislators severely watered down the proposal.)
    7) Huckabee has very little support for his Presidential bid here in Arkansas
    For the most part those in his party who know him best are not supporting him.
    In October, a University of Arkansas poll showed that, among all Presidential candidates in both parties, only 8% of Arkansans said they were supporting Mike Huckabee.
    That same week, the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette reported that only one-third of Republicans in the Arkansas Legislature said they were supporting their former governor’s Presidential bid.
    After this story, the Huckabee campaign published a list of supporters in his home state. The Arkansas News Bureau then reported that as some of the names on Huckabee’s Arkansas endorsement list were used without permission and had to be removed.
    This is purely anecdotal, but despite my involvement in Republican politics, I am unaware of any of my Republican friends who are supporting Huckabee. I have seen maybe 3 Huckabee for President bumper stickers – and I live in Republican west Little Rock and work 2 miles from the state capitol where Huckabee just completed over 10 years as Governor (my wife says she saw her first sticker today…..guess he’s picking up steam here!).
    “…if Huckabee didn’t have things sewn up with Republicans back home, what kind of message did that send?….The truth is that Huckabee hasn’t had that much support from former and current Republican legislators.” - David Sanders, conservative columnist for Arkansas News Bureau (November 11, 2007)
    Conclusion:
    I realize the Republican Presidential field does not leave true conservatives with much to get excited about. However, it is unlikely I will support Huckabee over any of the Republican frontrunners because of his liberal record, his questionable judgment, and his reckless use of power while Governor. Now is not the time for Republicans to compromise on core conservative values. More importantly, we need a leader with a history of using strong judgment as our nation continues to lead the world in the War on Terror.

    Two final questions:
    1) Given the many vulnerabilities in his record, what is the likelihood that Huckabee would win in a general election? Democrat National Committee officials have already been quoted as saying that they see Huckabee as “easy kill” and refer to him as “the glass jaw — and they’re just waiting to break it.” The DNC has issued over 200 attack press releases on Republican candidates - only 4 on Huckabee, the last one coming 10 months ago.
    2) Does his record as governor represent someone who should be given greater power and responsibility? Is he Commander and Chief material? Leader of the free world? National Review recently expressed concern, and Huckabee raised eyebrows with recent comments critical of U.S. Foreign policy and our role in the world - he was essentially repeating the Democrat talking points!

    Feel free to pass this letter on or contact me if you have any questions about anything stated here. I have tried very carefully to be fair, accurate, and to stick to facts from Huckabee’s record. But it’s certainly possible I made a mistake somewhere or worded something poorly. I would be more than happy to further dialogue on any of these issues.

    Sincerely,
    David Thompson
    Little Rock, Arkansas


  245. To Ed:

    Although it really no longer matters, I think point seven has been proven false. In Arkansas, Huckabee received over 60% of the vote of Republicans while Romney received only 51% or so in Michigan.

    Shalom.


  246. To Dave:

    I would clearly expect you to be against my view that the Bible teaches that spiritual baptism is required while water baptism is not required. Matthew 3:11 makes it clear that there is a difference between the baptism that Christ called for and the baptism using water. Keeping this in mind, it would seem that Matthew 28:19 teaches spiritual baptism instead of water baptism. However, because that verse does not specify which baptism it is talking about, all we can do is offer different hypotheses as to what it means. If you want me to accept that water baptism is required for salvation, you must provide some Biblical support for that idea.

    As far as your next statement that all Heavenly Father’s children have the right to receive salvation, I would say that:

    1) Not everyone is a child of God. Only those people who worship Him are a child of God, which is supported by Biblical testimony, especially considering that some people are labeled as children of the devil and others are labeled as children of foreign gods. I have studied approximately saeventy-five verses that speak of the children of God, and they all speak either about Israelites, Christians, angels, or Jesus. The worshippers of foreign gods are never, to my knowledge, called children of God in the Bible.

    2) As far as all people having the right to come to God, I believe that everyone, when they first rebelled against God by sinning, forfeited that right by choosing to disobey God. It is only by God’s sovereign choice that anyone can receive salvation.

    The Holy Spirit, along with the prophets and apostles who wrote the Bible, testify of Christ and His gospel.

    Baptism with fire is synonymous with baptism with the Holy Spirit because fire is something that purifies, much like the Holy Spirit purifies those who have Him. Furthermore, Christ promises that once the Holy Spirit comes to us, it will never leave us but remain with us forever (John 14:16).

    Once again, I am not talking about general salvation, a concept that probably did not originate until the heretic Pelagius in the fifth century, but Biblical salvation which IS entering into the presence of both the Father and of Christ, as opposed to suffering the second death which is separation from the Father in the Lake of Fire.

    As far as your concept of the Trinity, you appear to not understand it. The Trinity, as you seem to think by using the example of Christ’s baptism, is not equivalent with the heretical teaching of Modalism — that Christ is the Father and the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity, as taught by the Bible is as follows:

    1) There is only one God.
    2) The Father is God.
    3) The Son is God.
    4) The Holy Spirit is God.
    5) The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit, etc.

    The Mormon teaching that they are separate beings is a doctrine known as tritheism and attempts to assert that they are three separate gods in one godhead, a concept that can be found in the Hindu godhead of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva.

    1 Corinthians 15:40-42, when read in context (1 Corinthians 15:35-50, does not speak of different levels of glory within heaven, but compares the glory of our present, earthly bodies with our future, heavenly bodies. Although you may attempt to say that earthly refers to terrestrial while spiritual refers to celestial, the context says that our earthly body which is sown in dishonor because of Adam will be raised from the dead as a spiritual body of honor because of Christ.

    I do not believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet because he gave false prophecies, which Biblically disqualifies him from being a true prophet of God.

    As far as that Bible saying that Stephen is a criminal, whoever wrote that Bible note has several problems including an inability to comprehend what is said in the Bible and a complete distrust of the Bible as evidenced by them referring to a Biblical teaching as being heretical. As far as that passage is concerned, it never states that Stephen saw the Father, but that he saw Christ standing next to the GLORY of the Father.

    Shalom.


  247. This blog is the VERY reason I CANNOT vote for MIke Huckabee. What bigotry against others of a different faith than your own.
    Shameful, shameful, shameful.
    We cannot have a man in the White House who espouses such beliefs. I will campaign against Mr. Huckabee with every fibre of my being.


  248. JD,

    What false prophesies did Joseph Smith give?


  249. [...] read more | digg story [...]


  250. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html

    Interesting article by a non-Mormon biblical scholar. It tends to agree with the Mormon view of death and resurrection.


  251. JD,

    You said,

    “The Mormon teaching that they are separate beings is a doctrine known as tritheism and attempts to assert that they are three separate gods in one godhead, a concept that can be found in the Hindu godhead of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva.”

    It can also be found in the Bible. The catholic doctrine of the trinity cannot without a lot of wrenching.


  252. JD,

    Your statement above:

    “However, because that verse does not specify which baptism it is talking about, all we can do is offer different hypotheses as to what it means.”

    This is the exact reason why we need modern day prophets.

    Your doctrine is speculation and conjecture. Why should we have to hypothesize about the meaning of a verse. Doesn’t God love his children enough to not require them to guess what we have to do to return to him.

    Some evangelicals read Mark 16:17-18 and incorporate snake handling into their worship services. Is their interpretation wrong? Who says?

    Who has the definitive answers and if someone has them why is there a discrepency in belief amoung evangelicals?

    I bet you if I walk down my street and ask my evangelical neighbors if we are all children of God, 10 out of 10 would say yes. Yet you say no.

    You use the same verse to support a different theology than Mormons. So who is right- the people who claim that their intellect has provided the answer or the ones who claim understanding through direct revelation from God.

    The ones who get their doctrine form ancient non-christian councils or the one who claim that God talks to men once again.

    The trinity argument is the same. The Bible supports our view of the Godhead. We have no qualms with the Bible. I honestly don’t see how the Bible supports the trinity because the trinity make no sense. Why would God be this neboulous entity. If he is, why would anyone want to return to him.

    Recently I’ve been reading a book about William Tyndale’s translations of the Bible from Greek into English. He was reviled as a heretic. It reinforces how completely subjective it is when translating from one language to another. He was reviled for using non catholic terms like elder instead of priest, repent instead of do penance, atonement. He strived to make verses flow and sound beautiful when read aloud. 90 pecent of the King James Vesion is attributed to him. Yet he never stopped revising his work. He did not think his work was perfection. Yet know the evangelical world thinks that his words are perfect and immutable.

    Truth does not come from the philosophies of men but comes from God. The evangelical foundation is built on nonbiblical philosophies like the trinity. It is a house build on sand.


  253. Bishop,

    There is only one LDS site that has the doctrine and canon of the church is posted on. It’s http://www.LDS.org. “White and delightsome” is not something I had even ever heard of and it is not church doctrine and never was church doctrine.

    Paul said that he was working towards godhood.(Phillipians 4:3) There is a biblical reference to the doctrine just like there is one for Baptism for the dead.(1st Corinthians 15:29)


  254. JD,

    “To Ed:

    Although it really no longer matters, I think point seven has been proven false. In Arkansas, Huckabee received over 60% of the vote of Republicans while Romney received only 51% or so in Michigan.”

    Point seven was the least important concerning Huckabees record. I don’t understand the comparison between Arkansas for Huckabee and Michigan for Romney.

    But if you think it’s important, Romney got 90% of the vote in Utah. The most any candidate in either party got in any state. In every primary he got double digit support, the lowest being 14% in arkasas.

    Huckabee got single digit support 5 times- approx 25% of the time.

    Even with Romney’s campaign being suspended, he has a better change of being president than Huckabee does.

    Not that it matters.


  255. Your views on Gov Romney and Mormons, as sadly shared by some of our very own congregation, would force me to reconsider my own Christian faith if I were faithless enough to allow anyone other than God Almighty to define it in his stead. I am one that has a great deal of trouble switching my support from Gov Romney to Sen McCain. Today, I thought I might give Mr. Huckabee a second look after having been turned off after Iowa by his almost Jimmy Carter-esque naivete towards what it will take to lead as president.

    Now that I’ve been enlightened by the not so soft-bigotry of your beliefs (and I must conclude, those of Rev. Huckabee as well), I clearly see that a Huckabee presidency presents a clear and present danger on par with a Clinton or Obama victory. Only worse. The surprise is that it is on the basis of immorality, as preaching hatred and bearing falsehoods against those that have caused you no harm must certainly be immoral in any church.

    At least the candidacies of Clinton and Obama are not borne by an assault on Christian decency everywhere. As a believer in the one true loving Christian God, I now see it is my obligation and responsibility for the sake of my faith to steer as many people away from Rev Huckabee as I can - not that I’m anticipating that to be a great difficulty. Not after I herd them to your website and pass around some material after services tomorrow.

    I haven’t seen a more tortured defense of indensible remarks than I have in this site - not since Bill Clinton tried to redefine the word “is”. As a Christian and a life long conservative I have spent the greater part of my forty four years practicing and defending conservatism and Christianity and will continue to do so. But for now, whenever I think about the remarks I’ve read here and all during this campaign, I feel really foolish about it.

    I’ve known many people from the LDS over the years on a personal level. Regardless of what is scribbled down somewhere on parchment as compared to the actual people, their beliefs and practices on a daily basis, I am happy to inform you that you do not know what you are talking about. Anymore than the critics of Christianity who have to delve into the 12th Century for their criticisms.

    The best advice I can give you is stick to what you know. I assume it is a Biblical education? God gave us his word and told us where to find it and how to use it. Supposedly you were included. Why not spend your time building on God’s word rather than tearing down another’s house with your own words, but doing so in God’s name.

    After all, the next house that is judged to be false and gets torn down next, might be your own.

    So are you the same group of haters that protest soldier funerals or are you just finding it to be a steep learning curve to get to their level?

    Hock


  256. This is psycho! How Christian is it to focus time, money, energy and resources towards condemning someone or a religion for that matter who lives a clean and pure life? I’m sure the YOUR Almighty is very proud of you.

    This baptist stuff seems very cult-ish. Very bazaar scary stuff.


  257. I watched the God Makers and tape recorded a piece of it. It says, “Joseph Smith, a young treasure seeker often known for his tall tails was one day visited by two humanoids from a star base called Kolob. Through the humanoids Joseph was revealed that all in opposition to him would be thrust to hell in a handbasket”. That is a direct quote from this movie. A better quote would be. One day, a young boy known for his seriousness in seeking religious truth did as the bible instructed him in James 1:5. He knelt in prayer and had a spiritual experience similar to those of other prophets and was told he had a prophetic call to teach the world about the gospel of Jesus Christ and help many come unto him. Huckabee and other Baptists dislike the LDS Church because the baptist religion has lost nearly 1,000,000 members to the LDS faith. This is not a slam on baptists this is a compliment to them for truly bringing people to Christ and then these people discovering perhaps they have had milk and now they are ready for the meat. We are all sons/daughters of God and should be lifting not degrading each other. Mitt is Christian by word and DEED


  258. Thanks for contributing to the lies that are spread about good Christians. If I’m going to hell, I’ll see you there for purposfully spreading lies. Maybe you good baptist folk don’t believe lying is a sin?


  259. By their fruits you shall know them. I have witnessed the amazing work of the mormon people, who belong to THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. I have also seen the vile spewed by pastors and “christians” in my hometown of the south. You sir, would be wise to actually follow the teachings of the Bible and love your neighbors; rather than judging under rights not deemed to you in the first place.


  260. Sherwood,

    You are a charlatan, a hypocrite, and a disgusting human being. If I were running the LDS Church, I’d be destroying you in the courts for slander and libel. Maybe one day…


  261. I am ashamed that I visited this site. Those who authored this nonsense are liars, traitors to the ideals that built this country, and traitors to your own candidate, a good man who has expressly disavowed such bigotry. I was a supporter of Rudy Guiliani, and am now looking for a candidate that I like. I was considering Romney and Huckabee until Romney dropped out. Huck seemed like the obvious choice, but I must admit, reading this site has raised questions. I don’t wish to be associated with people like you, those who believe that voting for a secular leader is a missionary activity (see reason #6 in this article). Furthermore, I am a Christian, and am saddened to see that those who share Gov. Huckabee’s beliefs are capable of such hate. “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” The author of this site has expressly damned all Mormons to hell; is this not unrighteous judgment? Why not let God judge the Mormons? Whether they are Christians or not (and I believe they are), why should we alter the founder father’s vision that no religious test should be applied for public office? I believe that whoever wrote this article, and the others on this site, are far from the path that Jesus laid out for his believers. While I will refrain from judging you, I think you should review the facts, and revise your teachings of bigotry. Suddenly, John McCain is looking like a viable candidate to me.


  262. The idea that you would dare to say that God would hear the prayers of one of his children and not others is unthinkable. God loves us all, no matter what our religion. Mormons believe this about you, and any other Child of God on this planet, which includes all of us. I do not feel that there is love in what you say, or respect. The Bible is NOT extra, it is beloved scripture. You may say it is not, but you don’t get to define what I as an active Latter Day Saint believe. I would wait for a response on this site, but you may be sure that I will not visit it again. Shame on you.


  263. the funny thing here is that mormons get so mad when you tell the truth about their religion. It is true that mormons believe jesus and satan were brothers which is (according to the bible) false. How can jesus and the devil be brothers if Jesus was GOD in the flesh? And it is also a fact that mormons believe that no one goes to hell so if that is true and there is just 3 levels of heaven why would you even live a good life because even if you end up in the third heaven you can accept the truth and move up to the first heaven? That is the problem with this country there is no longer a standard everything is relative. There is no more right or wrong you can do what ever and still make it to one of the heaven. This is not bigotry this is just someone stating the truth about something and because there is no black or white anymore people call it bigotry!! There has to be a right and wrong a truth and a lie if not what is the point of having any morals? To me rape isnt wrong so im going to do it and dont tell me im wrong because thats bigotry that is the same logic yall people are using. GOD is a God of right and wrongs and the bible is the only true words of GOD and JESUS is the only way to heaven that is the truth!! And that is not bigotry that is the truth no matter what people say


  264. I am actually glad you have this website. It is so nice that you have provided proof positive that the Baptists have a paranoid, fanatical hatred of Mormons and are willing to put it right out there for the world to see. And it’s clear people are coming to this site and are appalled at what they see. I for one am going to keep this site and make sure that it is posted widely, as I will continue to work against any political office for Huckabee. His dishonesty is as bad as his bigotry and hypocrisy. This site will be very helpful in my efforts. Thanks again for your up-front bigotry, unlike the dishonest bigotry of your candidate, Huckabee.


  265. I wonder how anyone can THINK they KNOW that the Bible is the ONLY words from God????
    And what about all the people during the time of man that have never HEARD of a Jesus the Christ? How do they get to heaven???
    And how did the Protestant movement get started??? Protestant means “protesters”. They protested other faiths and began their own interpretations and beliefs.
    So to sum this up, we have Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Greek Orthodox, Islam, Hindu…I must be leaving someone out…oh yes, Buddhists. I’m sure there are more, but my point is this: God loves us all. We are ALL His children, and He wants us to get along. I am sure He gave us all many truths and if we live a life according to His will, we will be okay. Interpreting His will can be difficult for a narrow-minded person, and I would encourage you, Pastor, to search your soul about condemning another religion. Your assessment of the LDS church is in extreme error, and you are trying to lead people away from God. May God have mercy on your soul.


  266. The fact this site exists shows extreme hatred and bigotry. Maybe before you show this type of KKK/Hitler hate you should get on your knees and ask your God if this if of him- maybe you should wait until he speaks to you. You and ministers like you are simply full of hate and are the scum of the earth.

    I know for a fact the “Mormons” do not endorse any political party or person. You would never hear politics uttered from their pulpits.


  267. Boy you sure have your facts messed up. I am a mormon and I am a Christian through and through! May God have mercy on your soul!


  268. Wow this is the most ridiculous and psychotic ranting I have ever heard in my life. I was raised in a mormon household and I find it absolutely amazing how stupid people can be. A cult? Harmful to our Country? Yes, it would be so terrible to have a moral and ethical leader. Mormons are just insane. Living clean lives and being decent people. I wouldn’t vote for Huckabee after seeing this website if my life depended on it. I would become an expatriot before living under a leader who has people like this supporting him.


  269. Mormons do not believe that God the Father had “sex” with Mary to conceive Jesus. That is patently false, and you know it. The Bible says that Mary conceived of the Holy Ghost, and it is understood that it was a miraculous occurrence. It being a miracle implies that it did not occur by standard means. I know that anti-Mormons like to cite a discussion Brigham Young had with Church elders in the late 1800s recorded in the Journal of Discourses to say that Mormons believe such, but the discussion centered only around God the Father’s relationship with Mary with regards to the conception of Christ. No where does it say that God had “SEX” with Mary and no Mormon believes such, but you people like to distort the context to make it into some sensationalistic doctrine that doesn’t exist. This would be the same as an anti-Christian falsely claiming that all Christians believe that the Holy Ghost had “sex” with Mary because the Bible says in Matthew 1:20, “But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.” Mormons have enough unusual doctrines for you to pick at that you don’t need to go around making up such lies. That being said, it makes sense that you and your ilk propagate such lies since you are children of the devil, the Father of Lies.


  270. Thank you for your comments. You have increased my faith in my Savior. By your actions you are fulfilling his words. “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
    Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” When people like you who claim to be servants of Christ are so intent on spreading lies about the gospel of Jesus Christ, I find comfort in His words. I know that Jesus Christ is my Savior. I also know that He has restored His church. I have read the Book of Mormon and prayed to know if it is true. I have received a testimony from the Holy Ghost. I know it is true. Keep the vitriol coming. As I hear more of your attacks, my testimony in Jesus Christ will only grow stronger.


  271. Curtis,
    First of all… pastors (such as Pastor Sherwood) do not endorse any political party, or person, from the pulpit! If a pastor did that they could cause there church to loose their tax exempt status! SECOND… This website does not show any hatred towards anyone! It is just here, simply to share the truth!

    Elei,
    We are not condemning, but trying to show the right way to Jesus Christ!… ALSO… what seems “cult-ish” to you about the Baptist denomination?

    To anyone who wants,
    Y do u say that Mormonism is Christianity?


  272. hahaha, ok what’s the difference between my choosing to not vote for someone because they are a mormon and the idea that mormons seek each other out in business to help promote the members of their church. both situations deal with choosing someone based on their religious beliefs, whether or not they are the same as your own.

    All you mormons that choose romney because he shares your faith don’t call your self bigots, but you sure throw that word around when it comes to someone that chooses to vote for huckabee because he shares their religious beliefs. you mormons wouldn’t vote for a muslim candidate, so you are also “bigots” well, and hypocrites. To quantify: I am an atheist and I live in Idaho(huge mormon population)

    Don’t voluntarily belong to a “church” that is on the fringe and is often regarded to be a cult and then … (edited for mildly foul language)… about it publicly. You resigned yourself to such opinions when you joined that institution. You all act surprised at these comments. How naive you are then. So then must be your choices in religion?

    And get … (edited for mildly foul language)… off my front step on Saturday mornings! I don’t bug you to become an atheist. You sell your religion so hard because it can’t sell itself!


  273. Wow… that has got to be one of the most factually inaccurate, hatred-filled diatribes I’ve ever read!!!


  274. To all my Brothers and Sisters. It has been fantastic reading your Testimonys of the truthfullness of the Gospel of The Church Jesus Christ of Latterday saints.
    Its wonderful the see that WE are defining our Beliefs and not allowing others to make the definition for us.

    These negative remarks about our church have going around from our humble begining. Here we are with over 13 million members..The stone continues to roll.

    The Book of Mormon is true and is a companion to the Bible.
    We are blessed to have the whole truth and continued revelation from our living President and Prophet Thomas Monson.


  275. I am and have been a practicing Mormon all my life and served a two year voluntary mission and served in many lay positions in the LDS church, and I am here to tell you that there are so many lies in your teachings. Why teach these things when they aren’t true. I am very aware of the Tanners (no relation) and their money making anti-mormon machine, the god makers etc. They are in it for the money and are only teaching lies and at the most, just partial truths mixed with a lot of lies. You really should try to be more honest in what you teach.

    And also, let me testify to you that I am a Mormon and I have had the most spiritual experiences speaking with our Heavenly Father in prayer. He has led and guided me often in my life. I have seen miracles in my life and it is very sad that you would suggest that the Lord hasn’t listened to my prayers, just because I am LDS.

    I wish you the best and I hope that you can look into your conscience and stop teaching the hate. Just because you are supposedly doing it in the name of God doesn’t make what you are teaching true. There really is a God in heaven and we all will be held accountable for the things we teach. Take this responsibility seriously because eternity is a long time. I would really ask myself these questions if I were you, the problem is that when you are making money from a cause, it can really cloud your decision making and can definitely make it hard to hear the promptings of the Holy Spirit. This is why it is a good idea to not use religion and spiritual things to make money.

    Good luck and God bless you in your decisions.

    Nathan Tanner


  276. As a member of the LDS church who has very close ties to Evangelicals (I’m married to one), I have to say that I am embarrassed for Mr. Haisty. He is only showing how blissfully ignorant and closed minded he is. Although my husband vehemently does not believe the things that I believe, we have missionaries in our home frequently so that my husband can make INFORMED decisions about what I and my family believe. In return, we attend church functions at an Evangelical church. When we first got married, things were choppy because there was such a perceived difference in our beliefs. We have learned to find common ground. That common ground is that we both believe that the Bible is the word of God and that we both believe in a loving and redeeming Christ. When we focus on our commonalities, we find that there is more love and peace in our home and the Spirit of God can dwell here and lead our lives. And no, he has not lead me away from the LDS church.


  277. Wow!!! What an interesting site! False and inaccurate, but interesting.

    My non LDS brother watched the God Makers, many years ago. He was familiar with the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS (the only true and living church upon the face of the earth with which the Savior would endorse, of course, is the one organized by Him.) He told me, “don’t bother to go; it is so full of inaccuracies,it is worthless”

    Today, this same brother is married to a former Catholic; both are now members of the Savior’s church. The film, God makers, encouraged his membership into the Church of Jesus Christ.

    BTW: Pastor Haisty, are you aware of Harper’s Bible dictionary? If you are, sir, you might be surprised it indicates the Christian churches of today (with exception of Church of Jesus Christ LDS), these churches have a false understanding of the Trinity which is NOT based on NT teachings/belief/eye witness testimonies of the TRUE nature of God, the Savior of mankind, and the Holy Spirit. The false and inaccurate beliefs of God, and the trinity, are based on the The Nicene Creed, not the teachings of the apostles and eye witnesses which are found in the NT. For those reading this site, the Nicene Creed is a 4th century conference invoked by decree of Constantine; its inaccurate belief system came by REASON, not REVELATION. The apostles were long gone; none were able to say, “thus saith the Lord”; the power to act in the name of God had disappeared from the earth, to return at a later time. (2 Thess 2:3) We all agree on one thing regarding the Nicene creed (doctrine of devils?): “it is incomprehensible.”

    Here Sir, for your consideration is the exact quote: “formal doctrine of the trinity as defined by great church councils of the 4th and 5th centuries is NOT found in the (New Testament).” Harper’s Bible Dict

    How, Sir, could the churches today respond to such a statement by no less a source than the stalwart, Harper’s Bible dictionary? It seems the only true and correct understanding of the Trinity, is based on the Savior’s teachings, found in the NT, his apostles, and the living prophets and apostles today.

    I await your considered answer.

    cheryl

    Do you dare print this?


  278. I mean, you can’t even spell counterfeit correctly. You should have your congregation buy you some spelling lessons. The real reason that there is so much hatred for Mormons among Christian preachers is because they represent a real threat to take away their livelihood. Without a congregation, Mike Huckabee wouldn’t have been so fat. He is starting to balloon a little again, but that’s besides the point. Preachers hate competition. If two grocery stores open in the same town, they’re both going to claim to be superior to each other. That’s all that is going on here. It’s well documented that as a preacher, and as Governor, Huckabee mooched off other people, had people pay for his kids to do stuff, etc. If Huckabee somehow became President (no chance, he’s still losing to Romney, and Romney dropped out), he will gain so much weight with that free food and full-time kitchen service. Your body is a temple Mr. Huckabee. Go Cougars!


  279. Thanks guys! I haven’t ever signed up for your site, but I read it regularly (usually at school in our library where its nice and quiet). Anyway, this stuff about mormonism really got me going, and so I looked into it more. Well, I’m gonna get baptized next week and I’ve never felt so happy in my entire life. Anyway, I know you guys don’t agree with it, but thank you for piquing my interest; I’d never be as happy as I am today!
    -Thanks
    Seth


  280. I have noticed that all people do on here is come on and bash, and then they dont reply to responses! I have left some people with some questions, but no one seems to reply, or care!
    please RESPOND!!!


  281. What are your question’s Squid?


  282. I will repost my previous post…

    Curtis,
    First of all… pastors (such as Pastor Sherwood) do not endorse any political party, or person, from the pulpit! If a pastor did that they could cause there church to loose their tax exempt status! SECOND… This website does not show any hatred towards anyone! It is just here, simply to share the truth!

    Elei,
    We are not condemning, but trying to show the right way to Jesus Christ!… ALSO… what seems “cult-ish” to you about the Baptist denomination?

    To anyone who wants,
    Y do u say that Mormonism is Christianity?
    by Squid February 10, 2008 at 7:42 am
    …………………………………………..
    BUT…I have recently come upon some information that would change my previous comment about pastors endorsing from the pulpit. It has come to my attention that they can, and they can say that they themselves support (whoever)!


  283. Squid,

    I don’t have time to go back and read Curtis’ comments, but seeing that Pastor Haisty has a link to this site on his church’s website and visa versa, I would say that makes his support of Huckabee pretty offcial. Maybe not from the wooden pulpit, but definitely from the virtual pulpit.

    Again, I don’t have time to go back and read Elei’s comments, but I think you would have to be pretty willfully blind not to see that there is a lot of condemnation going on here (on both sides really). Our side specifically condemns Pastor Haisty’s lack of scholarship and sweeping falsehoods.

    As for us believing that “Mormonism is Christianity”, I think that we are having a disagreement about definitions. If you believe that Christianity is confined to people who believe in the Catholic definition of the Godhead, then no, we are not Christian.

    We however (along with most of the world) would define our Christianity by the fact that we believe that God, Jesus Christ, condescended to come to earth in the most lowly of circumstances. We believe that he suffered for our sins in Gethsemane, and that he died on the cross as a great and last sacrifice for sin. We believe that he was literally resurrected on the third day, thereby breaking the bands of death so that we all will live again. We believe that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is the only way that we can be saved. Our own works are insufficient.

    I hope that answers some of your questions. Let me know if you have more.


  284. Congratulations Seth!


  285. I am a Mormon and find that many Evangelicals or so called, like to distort my faith and my belief system in the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Savior of all and it is an abomination to bear false witness against a person or group of people.

    When you accuse others of being deceived, first look in the mirror. You might receive the answer to who is really being decieved.

    Respectfully,
    Dave


  286. I am often so surprised how much energy goes in to trying to discredit antoher’s religion. I’ve heard it been described as follows: The Mormons are like a caravan traveling by, doing their thing, expanding, helping, doing nothing but good. Those that oppose and disagree are like a barking dog on the sideline that no one pays attention to. This is how I feel about evangelical types that spend more time researching Mormon philsophy than their own. Clearly no on is going to change their mind here.

    What I don’t get is that NOTHING bad comes from Mormonism. Evangelicals can only argue doctrinal items, not stuff like blood transfusions, etc. It cracks me up that my evangelical friend felt bad about an abortion or two she had when she was younger so she found an evangelical pastor that said they were OK in the first trimester. They disagree so much from eachother, there is no organization and unity in teachings. Partly because it doesn’t come from GOD. Anyone can start up a church next to a grocery store based on how they interpret the Bible. At least Mormons claim all is from God, directly, modern prophets. How can you not?

    The reason there is so much furver against the LDS’s is because Satan stirs the hearts of men against that which is good. Why do you think all other religions go forward without much angst. Even the Muslims get a pass, b/c Satan is behind it. So, I chuckle as Sherwood and others nit pick and look so deep for “weird” LDS doctrines. The fact is, they can’t handle the basic doctrines let alone the “deep” ones we will all learn in the eternities.

    I ask you, do you like sitting on a cloud all day, singing? Why would we want to do that in the eternities? Is that an evangelicals idea of eternity is? How can it not be continual learning? If we learn continually, forever, how can we not become more like God? If we slowly learn ultimate patience, ultimate wisdom, ultimate, humility, all the sciences, etc…how does one NOT become like GOD? God loves having children and watching them grow and learn. That is HIS eternal happiness. Why can’t taht be ours? I’d like to know what evangelicals are going to do for eternity? Do they think they are done? No work, no love, now growth? If someone works on being perfect, which is our goal, and someone actually reaches it, what do you call that person? It sooooooo clear and easy and those that have SATAN whispering in their ears gets confused.

    For not being Christians, the Mormons sure do seem to be much more understanding and have their arms open to accept anybody. The evangelicals idea of acceptance is to look away from sin and tell people it is OK to sin as long as you profess. I even heard of evangelicals having XBOX parties to try and bring the young crowd (nothing wrong with XBOX, I played 6 hours Saturday night). But they really are desparate. You won’t find an Anti-Baptist book ANYWHERE in a Mormon church, but you sure will find Anti-Mormon stuff in a Baptist or evangelical’s church. Sherwood even mentions the “Godmakers I and II” above. If it wasn’t so outdated they would still be touting it. It is their way to try and smear and lie. Come by and listen to a LDS Church service, you will hear nothing but good things, nothing weird. No standing up, raising your hands up to the sky, outwardly showing your praise (unchristian I might say). You will see reverence and organization world-wide since it all comes from the same source: GOD. The evangelicals seem unorganized and loose, since they can “do what they want” when they find a pastor that thinks the same way.

    RENO…


  287. Rowley,
    Ok, but just to be clear… The church does not support Huckabee, Pastor Sherwood as an individual supports him!
    Ya, ill agree with you, that BOTH sides are casting condemnation! But, it seems as though a lot on one side (yours) are casting that our side is doing all the condemning.
    You are right that we do have a difference in definitions! Because I believe that if a “religion” bases, even 1 thing, that goes against the bible, then it is NOT Christian! Such as teaching that you can become a sort-of-god!


  288. Squid,

    You don’t believe in baptism for the dead, even though it is in the Bible.

    1 Cor 15:29
    Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

    You are not therefore not Christian.

    Welcome to our side of the tracks.


  289. evangelicalsformitt.com

    In his brilliant essay on “What it Means to Be a Mormon Christian,” BYU English professor Eugene England shared a quote from the great reformer Martin Luther: “The kingdom of God is like a besieged city surrounded on all sides by death. Each man has his place on the wall to defend and no one can stand where another stands, but nothing prevents us from calling encouragement to one another.” England then goes on to say, “It would be tragic if we Christians, standing each in our different places, were to desert our place on the wall…to turn on each other.”


  290. To Rowley:

    You asked for some false prophecies of Joseph Smith. While I could sit here and type some of them up (I have actually made a list in some folder in one of my drawers of my twenty favorite false prophecies, you can get a little glimpse at some of them on this website.
    http://www.exmormon.org/prophet.htm
    Just so you know, I do not agree with all of their comments regarding the prophecies. I post this link so that you can go read where some of the false prophecies come from and then read the prophecies for yourself. I do not expect you to take this website at face value because I am sure that many consider it to be “anti-Mormon propaganda”. I hope you will at least look at that website and some of the prophecies and judge for yourself, not letting anyone - Mormon or not - hold sway over you.

    As far as tritheism goes, I see no teaching regarding tritheism until the middle of the sixth century when the Monophysites espoused belief in it. Tritheism is in direct contradiction of monotheism, belief that there is only one being called God. The Bible makes explicit monotheistic statements in over twenty places. The Bible also maintains that there are three people called God who are not the same person but yet, by definition of monotheism, exist in one (not three) beings. A fairly early defense of the Trinity (this happening many years before the Council of Niceae) was that the logical incomprehensibility of the Trinity is proof of its divine origin. Both oneness and tritheism take the view of the Trinity but either reject the individuality of the persons or the deeply monotheistic teachings of the Bible. Likewise, they are man-made attempts to make God seem logical in human eyes. God has already revealed Himself to us in a way that is not completely logical (though there are many people who have a very good understanding of it). Honestly, does it make sense that the minds of Christians would develop the doctrine of the Trinity which their minds don’t even understand?

    Shalom.


  291. To Ed:

    First off, thank you for being more civil to me in your later posts. I truly appreciate it. Now in response to your first post:

    I realize that you believe that we need modern-day prophets to help us understand God’s truth. However, I am hesitant of letting any clergy (rather they be “paid” in money or “paid” in influence or power) interpret the Bible for me. I believe that as a Christian, God’s Spirit indwells me forever and will guide me into God’s truth. Because Matthew 28:19 honestly has no theological effect whether or not the disciple’s were told to baptize with water or with spirit (it still does not say that water baptism is required for salvation), it doesn’t matter how one interprets it as long as they do not base their entire theology off of just that one verse.

    There exists different beliefs among evangelicals for the precise reason that God has allowed us to either listen to the instructions of the Spirit or not. He has provided us with everything that we need to know to receive salvation (by grace through faith) and live a “good” life in the Bible. Furthermore, He has promised that as long as we listen to Him, He will not lead us into error. Many people get so wrapped up in proving that they are true that they forget what the Bible says.

    If your evangelical neighbors said that all humans were children of God, then I would seriously doubt that they have ever paid any attention to what God tells them and are much more interested in what pleases their ears…for example Joel Osteen’s beliefs.

    Your question comparing me to you as far as where we receive our answer could just as easily be asked this way:

    Who is more correct, the ones who base their beliefs off what their clergy says (referring to Mormons) or the ones who base their beliefs off what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them while reading the Bible (referring to Evangelicals)?

    Please provide some evidence that the Mormon doctrine of tritheism and NOT the Christian doctrine of Trinitarian monotheism is taught in the Bible.

    As far as the King James Bible goes, it is really one of the WORST translations of the Bible ever made. The translators in multiple places added words to their version to make it support their theology. My favorite English version is the NIV. However, I much rather enjoy reading the Greek and (occasionally) the Hebrew. I find that the original languages teach us things that English versions are not capable of teaching us because of them being imperfect.

    I realize that you are in disagreement with Christian doctrine like the Trinity and believe it disagrees with Biblical teaching. Could you please refer to one verse that disagrees with the Trinity for me?

    Also, could you please find Biblical references that teach any of the following:

    -Different levels of heaven
    -TOTAL apostacy
    -Everyone is a child of God
    -God the Father can be seen
    -Baptism is essential
    -Salvatian for the Dead
    -Eternal Marriages
    -Priesthood Authority
    -Premortal Existence

    I have already asked this of Mormons on a discussion board and got no good answers (meaning that they actually meant what the Mormons wanted them to mean when read in context). I do not say that to put you down but just so that you know that I have received some answers and they were pretty bad answers at that.

    Good luck and I hope you will continue to keep your posts civil.

    Shalom.


  292. Rowley,
    Why would I believe in baptism for the dead… when I don’t believe that Baptism saves! Because baptism does NOT save! So, that is why I don’t believe in Baptism for the dead, and I do not think that that’s what this passage is talking about!


  293. Baptism in and of itself does not save anyone, but it is an ordinance that has to be done in a physical body either by ones own self or by proxy. Baptism is a physical ordinance. It is a saving ordinance but that is not all that needs to be done to be saved. If the Savior was Baptised to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15) it must be very important


  294. Hmmm..

    Matt. 3: 13-17
    13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
    14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
    15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
    16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Mark 1: 9-10
    9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
    10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

    John 3: 5, 23
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    23 ¶ And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

    Matt. 28: 19
    19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Luke 7: 30
    30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

    Acts 2: 38
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 8: 38
    38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

    Acts 22: 16
    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    Rom. 6: 4
    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    1 Cor. 15: 29
    29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

    Col. 2: 12
    12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


  295. Baptism is not talking about receiving the Holy Ghost. It is clear in the bible that baptism by Water is a prerequisite for receiving the Holy Ghost.


  296. I have a question for all y’all.

    Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus will never speak through prophets again? Where does it say that the Bible is the only word of God?

    Sometimes it seems that people worship the Bible more than they worship the living God.


  297. Thes “pastors4huckabee” are the slime of the earth…that’s all I have to say. What a pathetic group of people.


  298. These “pastors4huckabee” are the slime of the earth…that’s all I have to say. What a pathetic group of people.


  299. To Doctor JD:

    You said “Who is more correct, the ones who base their beliefs off what their clergy says (referring to Mormons) or the ones who base their beliefs off what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them while reading the Bible (referring to Evangelicals)?”

    This is simply not true. Mormons very much teach about personal scripture study and listening to the Spirit. As a matter of fact, the very first thing that a Mormon missionary will ask ANYONE who will listen to them is to pray about what they have said and wait for confirmation from the Spirit! How else would we have so many converts? These are people who have read, studied on their own, have asked for confirmation, and have received such. Anyone can do it.

    Also, you asked for Biblical references for certain doctrines that we, as a church, practice. I submit to you that you cannot prove everything (or anything)by finding scriptural verses. If you could, then ALL bible-based Churches would believe the SAME thing. Also, if you could just read the scriptures and listen to the Spirit to know the truth, would it not tell everyone the same thing? Is the truth different for different people? Would the spirit tell one church that they need baptism by immersion, and another that they don’t? Why would it tell Baptists one thing, Methodists another, Presbtyerians yet another, etc, etc. No, the Bible is simply not enough. It’s a basic framework, but does not contain everything. And no where in the Bible does it say that it does contain everything. Certain books in the Bible prohibit adding or removing anything from those books, but they in no way refer to the Bible itself. Further revelation is needed. It’s why we believe in prophets. And for someone to say that modern-day revelation is farsical…well…how would you know? Was that revealed to you? Wouldn’t that right there prove that revelation still continues?

    Look, here’s the rub. We (as Mormons) generally are tolerant of others right to believe as they wish, and ask for only the same thing in return. We are a service-oriented society who believes that the only way to be saved is to adherence to the gospel of Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer. We do not believe that other churches are wrong, just that they are incomplete. As such, we do not believe that members of other churches will “go to hell” as evangelicals put it. No, we believe that only some Mormons can actually go to hell. Because we believe that to truly go to hell, one must KNOW the truth (not just have faith or believe) without a doubt and turn against it willingly, fighting against God. So, even then, most Mormons don’t qualify (because who actually KNOWS with that much certainty).

    I was raised Mormon in Virginia. I’ve also lived in the southwest and midwest. It’s amazing what people think of Mormons, and it’s even more amazing how they react when they get to know me and realize that all they’ve heard or learned is a twisted, convoluted version of the truth.


  300. Pre-Mortal Life:

    The Bible does not explicitly state that there was a pre-mortal life. However, there are several verses that allude to it. It was also believed by the Jews (you know, those guys that wrote the bible?).

    Job 38: 4-7
    4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
    5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
    6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
    7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Jer. 1: 4-5
    4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
    5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Eph. 1: 3-4
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Eccl. 12: 7
    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Acts 17: 28
    28 For in him we alive, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    Heb. 12: 9
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    Jude 1: 6
    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    Rev. 12: 9
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


  301. This site has really opened my eyes to the kind of blatant bigotry and hatred that is directed towards the LDS church. I would not be able to vote for Mr. Huckabee unless I heard him personally denounce such nonsense!


  302. Priesthood Authority:

    I only included verses from the New Testament, since it is very explicit in the Old Testament that ordinances can only be performed by men with priesthood authority. In the Old Testament (at least from the time of Jacob) the priesthood traveled through the lineage of Levi.

    It is also clear that priesthood authority was an accepted part of the early church.

    The verses from Hebrews chapter 7 explain that the priesthood in New Testament times is after the order of Melchesidec rather than the Levitical priesthood. The Melchesidec priesthood is not tied to any particular lineage.

    The truth of the matter is that the evangelical congregations today have almost nothing in common with the church that Christ and the Apostles organized. You really have to twist the Bible to avoid that simple truth.

    Matt. 16: 19
    19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    Mark 3: 14
    14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

    Mark 11: 28
    28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?

    Luke 9: 1
    1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

    Luke 10: 1
    1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

    John 15: 16
    16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    Acts 6: 6
    6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

    Acts 8: 18
    18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

    Acts 10: 42
    42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

    Acts 13: 3
    3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

    Acts 19: 11
    11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

    Gal. 1: 1
    1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

    1 Tim. 4: 14
    14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

    Titus 1: 5
    5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

    Heb. 5: 4
    4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

    Rev. 1: 6
    6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    1 Tim. 2: 7
    7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

    Luke 10: 1
    1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

    1 Pet. 2: 5, 9
    5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    Heb. 7: 5, 11-12, 14, 24
    5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
    14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
    24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

    Eph. 4: 11
    11 And he agave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    Eph. 2: 20
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


  303. Why didn’t someone tell me these things sooner!!! Here I’ve been living my whole life thinking I was a decent person, trying to do my best, and now I find out I’m as evil as all get out!

    Just think of all those hours and hours I’ve wasted on my knees praying to a God who wouldn’t even hear my prayers because I’m so evil!

    My parents, grandparents, my kids, my neighbors, all the people we go to church with, and the other millions of people around the world who I thought were such good people, now I find out they are all evil too!

    Well, I’m just glad I finally found out about my evil ways before it’s too late! I’m going to quit all this prayer, scripture, love your fellow man, strong families, follow Jesus’ example stuff! I mean if that stuff isn’t evil, I don’t know what is!


  304. JD,

    I read those “false prohpesies” by bitter ex-Mormons. Most of them fall into the yet to be fulfilled category. I didn’t see any of them that would fall into the “false” category. A lot of them are similar to bilical prophesies that say the last days are at hand. So if those ones are false, the ones in the bible are false too.


  305. Rowley,
    Baptism has no part in any persons salvation!
    Give me some kind of scripture that says that baptism is a part of salvation!


  306. Squid,

    John 3: 5, 23
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be **born of water** and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


  307. Here’s a nice little non-mormon website that talks about the necessity of baptism.

    http://www.bebaptized.org/default.htm


  308. It is great to see all of you “Born Againers” spewing all of your hate and ignorance. It makes me want to rush right over and be like you. What happened to the , “Light on a hill” thing? I don’t think he meant brawl in the streets, or contempt on the web, or rumors and lies from your lips.

    But you don’t really represent him anyway do you? Just your own little petty thoughts and squabbles with Mormons.

    Now get out there and keep on slandering. It looks so good on you, especially on you pastors.


  309. Rowley,
    I see that verse as talking about physical birth!…
    ALSO… Another reason that I believe that baptism does not save is this… We, as human beings, cannot do anything to be saved! Its all God! There is no action that we can do that can save us! Its all God!
    Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    I believe that verse says it all!


  310. Lets talk about celestial marriages! Come on Mormons, tell us about the rituals! Or tell us about celestial family names, or secret handshakes that reveal demons! You all speak in vague terms about the tenets of your beliefs, now lets talk specifics! If your religion is something to be so proud of then why is so much of it hidden in secrecy? Is it because recruiting would be so much harder if the general public knew your odd beliefs and rituals? I would say yes.


  311. Squid (and JD),

    Then Jesus Christ really DIDN’T have to be baptized! I thought Jesus showed us the way in ALL things. Jesus was pure, had no sin, didn’t need baptism other than to fullfill all rightousness. In other words, not only does the Bible say you need to be baptized, but Jesus recognized it was a commandment or requirement from the Father. Dare I say, “His Father”?

    There isn’t anything “strange” about this belief in most Christian Churches. Has the idea of not having to be baptized been adopted by the “It’s All Good” Non-Ddenominational organizations?

    Also, Neal is correct above. Evangelicals take away the authority from Jesus Christ by proclaiming who and who is not Christian. Mormons believe that the gospel was restored by a prophet, and that all christian religions have correct principals, just not ALL principals and ordanances. Yet, Mormons recognize that it is Jesus Christ who has the authority to judge who and who is not Christian. You can interpret the Bible all you want. You don’t have authority to dictate it’s pure meaning and intent.

    You talk about not being Christian if you deviate from one thing from the Bible, yet you pick and choose which things you believe in the Bible. It’s typical Evangelical posturing. Read the two different accounts of Judas in the Gospels of the Bible after the crucifixion of Jesus, along with the two different events where Paul received a Holy visitation, and come back and tell me there are no “Biblical” differences in those accounts.


  312. Rad,

    What the crap are you talking about? “Secret handshakes tht reveal demons”? Everything you have posted here is old anti-mormon garbage. Even in the days of old, Temple rituals were sacred. No one is going to cast pearls before swine.


  313. To Rusty:

    The baptism of John with water is described in the Gospels as being a baptism of repentance. In order for Jesus to need this baptism of repentance, He would have had to have sinned, with which I know no one except liberal “scholars” who would agree. Therefore Jesus had not reason to repent and receive a baptism for repentance. The three synoptic Gospels tell us that Christ received it to fulfill all righteousness, yet what does this mean? The answer lies in the Gospel of John. John 1:31 states that Christ was baptized so that Christ might be revealed to Israel, leaving Israel no reason to not know that He was there. Furthermore, His baptism by John initiated His ministry, as supported by Acts 1:12-26 and Acts 10:34-38.

    You say that Jesus showed us the way in ALL things, thus implying that you try to live your life like Christ. Do you follow all of the 600+ commandments in the Mosaic Law, which Christ obeyed? Do you celebrate Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Hanukkah, the Day of Atonement, etc. like Christ did? Do you celebrate the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week like Christ did, or do you celebrate it on the first day of the week to which the RCC changed it?

    Considering that I am not non-denominational, nor do I support the “It’s all good” ideas espoused by false teachers like Joel Osteen, your comment makes little to no sense. The idea that baptism is necessary for salvation, like the changing of the Sabbath to Sunday, is a creation of the RCC and not God.

    Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? By allowing Christ’s words to speak for themselves and not letting a prophet or pope tell us what is God’s truth, we give MUCH MORE authority to Christ than either Mormons or Roman Catholics. Christians believe that the Gospel was delivered once and for all to us by the apostles.

    Do you believe that we are as correct as your prophets and apostles did?

    “orthodow Christian views of God are pagan…”
    “The Christian world, so called, are heathens…”
    “[Christians] are more ignorant than children…”
    “Christian world was groveling in darkness…”
    “Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best.”
    “Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls…”

    Should I stop now or keep going? Is that what you believe? When was the last time that Mormons pronounced things like this against Christianity? Or have Mormons abandoned the teachings of the early Mormons in order to appear to be more like a Christian denomination?

    I talk about not being a Christian if you believe in a different god who is not the only god in existence and if you believe in a gospel other than that which was originally given to the saints.

    Shalom


  314. Oh brother JD. So all the teachings about baptism by the apostles in Acts and elsewhere were just a bunch of silly talk? The sophistry of that argument astounds me.

    Squid,

    Why in the world would Jesus mention being born as a pre-requisite to being saved? He was talking about being born *again* of water and of the spirit. Not to mention the fact that at least half of John Chapter 3 is talking about baptism.

    The evangelical gospel is so far removed from what we know of the early church, that it is literally impossible to reconcile the two.


  315. JD,

    You said,
    “Is that what you believe? When was the last time that Mormons pronounced things like this against Christianity? Or have Mormons abandoned the teachings of the early Mormons in order to appear to be more like a Christian denomination?”

    No, we definitely have not abandoned the teachings of the “early Mormons”. We have however chosen to use softer language to say the same thing.

    It is very clear that we believe that our church is the true church of Jesus Christ. That by definition means that all others are false. Do they contain elements of truth? Yes, most of them do.


  316. I’ve been a practicing Mormon all my life and I’m thankful that I’ve been taught to love and serve others no matter their faith or beliefs. Romney was trying to do his best for our country and spent a lot of his own money trying to win the election so he can help this country out. I’m sad he withdrew from the race. I want to vote for a conservative Christian, but Mr. Huckabee has shown himself to be unchristlike in his attitudes and beliefs against Mormons. What can I say but the gospel of Jesus Christ is true! Heaven help us if we get another liberal in the White House. Go McCain!


  317. Sherwood–

    If you are basing what you think Mormons believe based on the Godmakers movies, you are being sorely mislead and that is not just being said by Mormons. The Jewish Anti-Defamation league has said that if such a propagandistic and scurlulous piece was put out pretending to represent Jewish or Catholic thought it would immediately be denounced for the piece of rubbish it is. If you want to see this in full just go to the Anti-Defamation league site.
    That movie was made by a bitter man from our town who was ex-communicated from the LDS church. I wouldn’t want to learn about your beliefs from someone who was disfellowshiped or shunned from your churches. Be fair and learn what the LDS church believes from the LDS.org site. I think we know more about what we believe than someone who is making a lot of money on movies full of lies, inuendos and half truths.


  318. I just read on another blog site that this one is being investigated by the IRS for violation of pastor’s and church’s tax immunity when they participate in political bantor and endorse candidates. Look at Fox News or the Seattle PI today for headline news on another minister who is being investigated and has been sent a 17 page document of his transgressions of the law. According to the other blog, this site and MANY churches are under investigation. How long do you think it will take for this one to disappear. Good riddance!


  319. Sherwood, I can always pick out your comments before I look down at your name. You cannot spell worth a darn, and your grammar is horrible! However, nothing proves that you are an idiot any better than your views do.


  320. WOW - the hatred that is spewed by someone claiming to be Christian. Makes you go hmmm. The answers to these questions are strictly opinion and should be prefaced with “In my oppinion” since none of them are actually backed up with truth or facts. This entire website spews fo hate and antichristian behaviour. Sad.


  321. Well put Sandy H. I can’t believe how many rotten comments by people who profess their love for the Savior. I know we don’t all agree on every issue but for petes sake does everyone hate each other this much? maybe we should all take a closer look at ourselves and see if we could say something nice or at least positive. It would be nice to get a civil conversation going about a particular subject and talk about the different views like intelligent people. Maybe this way some one could find something interesting about one anothers beliefs, instead of just spewing hatred and lies. It is sad.


  322. You exhaust me. Religious bigotry, racial prejudice, and chauvunism are not tenets of the Republican party. I pray that Gov Huckabee or Sen McCain does not share your beliefs. If they do, Hillary Clinton or Barak Obama will be our next president. May God bless America.


  323. Amazing, well not really. Not any answers to the questions I posed above. I don’t know why I was surprised. I guess Mormons love their secrets.


  324. I believe contention comes from the Devil. This website breeds contention and has served the Devil well.


  325. Dear Pastor Haisty and others,

    I have to believe that your heart was in the right place when you started this website. I think you were trying to shed light on what you feel is true. You were hoping to make Americans think about which candidate is more in line with mainstream Christianity. You were hoping to speak to Evangelicals and influence them to vote for Mike Huckabee because he is not a member of a “cult.”

    Unfortunately, it is quite clear from reading the responses that your efforts completely missed the mark. And it’s clear that readers’ responses are not merely against the content of your website, but more importantly they have been deeply offended, utterly repulsed, and completely turned off by the TONE of your website.

    The first thing that strikes any intelligent person is that your spelling and grammar are appalling. This only serves to reinforce their view that you are an ignorant, uneducated bigot.

    But the overriding impression from your website is that you are spewing anti-Mormon hatred, yet without a thorough or accurate knowledge of LDS teachings. If you had been able to back up what you said by using word-for-word quotes from the Book of Mormon, Journal of Discourses, pearl of Great Price, or other LDS sources, that would have been helpful. But when someone asks you a legitimate question, and you evade by saying “I only check my computer quickly,” that makes it appear that you do not take your interactions here seriously enough to give them thoughtful, researched responses.

    And to provide, as your source of information, a 30-year-old anti-Mormon movie (which was made with HORRIBLE production values) like “The Godmakers,” only cements the perception that you are an uninformed, narrow-minded, hate-filled and judgmental person who is just blindly spouting the lies that were once spewed by others.

    May I urge you to read the new book by George Barna, the pre-eminent Christian researcher, titled “UN-Christian.” Using his extensive research and astute observations of our culture and society today, he explains why such a huge percentage of Americans are turned off from religion and have formed such a negative reaction to it. It is experiences they’ve had with people like you, and websites like yours, that are driving people AWAY from church and from listening to the gospel.

    In summary, although some of your content might have truth in it, your judgmental tone and the lack of intellectual integrity have caused your efforts to backfire. Instead of drawing people TO support Mike Huckabee, instead you are making people to associate him falsely with this kind of attack. Worse, your unctious, unloving tone and the lack of serious scholarship and preparation in a spirit of excellence, have served only to harden the hearts of all who visit your website.

    Pastor Haisty, I humbly urge you, as a sister in Christ, to take down this website at once, and post in its place a humble apology. Unfortunately the website will still be “cached” in Internet memory forever, which is too bad.

    I know you meant well, but you have done enormous damage to Mike and to the gospel. Please try to fix this mistaken attempt by making amends.

    And in the future, try to be more humble and loving in your approach to other human beings. Remember, people don’t care how much you know…until they know how much you care. Jesus came full of grace and truth; but you are all truth, no love. Pure light only burns holes in things.

    To any LDS who might be searching for answers to questions about their faith: you might like http://www.UTLM.org which is based almost entirely on LDS writings and the Bible, without additional opinions.


  326. PS I should also say…I do support Mike Huckabee whole-heartedly. He is NOT a bigot, and this website does NOT represent his views nor his attitude towards people of other faiths.


  327. Margaret,

    I would much rather know what Pastor Haisty believes instead of reading why Mormons are not Christian, or why you can’t vote for someone because they are Mormon. I have asked numerous times why Evangelical Pastors think they have authority to decide who is Christian, when judgement should rest upon Jesus Christ.

    Also, Mormons have never taken upon themselves to proclaim who and who is not Christian. Yes, they believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was restored and other faiths have some, part, or most of the gospel, but not the complete deal. Others take offense to this, but Mormons have never taken the authority to judge who will ultimately make it to heaven. Having the complete gospel would help one make it back to the Father. The reason the LDS church sends out 19 and 20 year olds to preach the gospel. No one is ever forced to hear their message or accept what they say.


  328. WOW! someone told me to go to this sight… and man, what a response from Mormons on this blog, LOL. I don’t think the evangelicals really agree with what was said. I noticed that the homepage says that almost $4k was donated to Huckabee’s campaign from this site. A WHOLE $4 THOUSAND!!! That could be $1 by 4,000 people or maybe $50 each from each pastor that has joined to support Huckabee on this page (wasn’t there nearly 80 pastors who are willing to acknowledge they are as bigotted as the initiator of this blog?)
    Anyways, the second point to support that no evangelicals believe this #$@# is that almost all comments are left by mormons. WHere are the evangelical comments? It appears the author of this blog is somewhat dishonest so don’t be surprised if all of a sudden the dollar amount of contributions shown on the homepage jumps up or if a bunch of ghost evangelicals start making posts.
    [btw, I don't mind bad grammar and horribly misspelled words in blog commments, but the numerous errors in the author's original story? OUCH, it hurt to read it.]


  329. Anyone who posts this type of garbage is a coward. Sherwood, are you scared of the mormons success?


  330. I can only say that thank you for being honest. I knew this was behind the thinking of many evangelicals, now I don’t have to explain it myself (my poor Catholic mother has no idea this kind of thing goes on).

    And, my other thought is I hope you enjoy drinking from the bitter cup with President Barack Hussein Obama or President Hillary Rodham Clinton!

    Still, I forgive you because you know not what you do.


  331. Jon, you asked:

    “Sherwood, are you scared of the mormons success?”

    Well, I think that’s obvious! What dirty dealings!


  332. While I do not support Huckabee, I do have to stand up for him. This website is spewing garbage after more garbage in the supposed name of supporting Huckabee, yet they don’t even follow his stance on the thing:

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8239620

    Huckabee said not to vote for or against anyone based on religion.

    I find it ironic that Sherwood’s last name so aptly describes (albeit a different spelling) his manner of often ariving at conclusions. :-D


  333. Ministry is the bread and butter of evangelicals, Baptist,Catholics etc.., therefore the attacks against LDS members, who do everything voluntarely with no selfish aspirations.

    MONEY! MONEY ! MONEY ! Satan driving.


  334. This is just more evidence of what I have long suspected: that most of Huck’s support comes from his fellow Pastors and others who have great influence over their fellow evangelicals, who mis-use their authority to endorse a political candidate, and encourage their flock to vote the same way, claiming that it’s what God wants, and that God would want them to vote for such and such candidate.
    I have little respect anymore for those who belittle and misrepresent the sacredly-held religious beliefs of others, be they Mormon or any other law-abiding religion.
    In the LDS church folks are consistently taught not to belittle, ridicule, or misrepresent the religious beliefs of others, and are taught not to attempt to take upon themselves the authority to condemn others for their sincerely held beliefs. God will judge us based on the sincere desires of our hearts, and on our choices based on what was available to us in life, and what we sought after in life, not on whether or not we happen to subscribe to a particular religious persuasion. LDS believe that all law-abiding religions have good in them and that all humans have the capacity to be inspired by God at different times in their lives if they seek Him, and that some religions provide more truths than others, and some have more falsehoods than others. Every religious person believes that their religion has more truths than any of the other religions, otherwise they wouldn’t be a member of that religion. Too often however, people think that it’s “all or nothing”, and that all other religious adherents not of their own, are “going to hell”, or “will not be saved”, or other such nonsense, which only betrays a lack of understanding, and can rightfully be called bigotry, being too quick to judge and condemn beliefs different than our own. I don’t have a problem with folks disagreeing with another’s religous beliefs. That is normal and expected. The difference is to do so in a respectful and thoughtful manner, which unfortunately far too many evangelicals do not do, and has resulted in me becoming very leery of evangelicals, especially Pastors. On the 2 ends of the spectrum we have hardened, vicous bigots like Bill Keller, and kind, reasonable people like the folks at “Evangelicals for Mitt”, who are willing to respect and work with LDS people in working towards promoting traditional values in our society, at this crucial time in history when evil is becoming so prevalent in our “popular” culture. So which will it be, do you want to be divisive bigots like Bill Keller, whom Mormons and other non-evangelical conservative folks will have nothing to do with, or like the folks at EFM, decent & kind people with whom all conservatives of all religious persuasions can work. The future of conservatism is at stake, and I for one will not work with or support in any way, anyone who is anything like this “Bill Keller” character. Unfortunately, from your literature, you are much closer to his side of this extreme than you are to the folks at EFM, so I will steer very clear of providing any kind of support for any such group in any way, shape, or form. I will never support any cause organized by any evangelical group until I can determine if they promote lies and misrepresentations regarding other religious beliefs. This kind of bigotry also negatively affects our relations with Muslim nations. What kind of Muslim leader would want to work with a group of people who consistently slander, misrepresent, and belittle their sacredly held beliefs? In this regard, I believe that someone like Romney, who has publicly shown that he respects the religious beliefs of others (Faith in America speech), would be much more effective than Huckabee, who comes from a group who has shown far too little evidence of this kind of respect.
    Mormons have gone out of their way to show respect for and affinity to the adherents of other good religions, and you would do well to do the same. You will not garner the respect and admiration of the numerous good, decent people who are not of your faith, if you do not. There any many many good decent people you are alienating with this attitude, and your bull-headedness may have a high cost: The future of our American culture is at stake. Will we become more like the European culture or will we retain our religious heritage? If we cannot stick together then we risk failure.


  335. For goodness sake…could you please learn to spell? Your grammar is horrible. Please, go take an English 101 class at the local community college before you attempt to blog about these subjects. Your credibility goes right out the door when you appear uneducated; it actually fits right in with your bigotry and intolerance.


  336. You do not worship God, you worship the Bible.


  337. It is unfortunate to see the harshness in some of these entries. One must be reminded that contention is of the devil. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I found the truth that I was looking for through fasting, studying and prayer. I am satisfied with the answer that I received and will live accordingly. For those who want to argue the scriptures of the Bible- you could spend your entire life going back and forth. Evidently there is a greater source of truth. God himself. We are all God’s children seeking to be guided by His hand. That means we are all brothers and sisters with the same goal in mind. This is my belief and I respect those who believe differently. It’s O.K. to have a different opinion than someone else, but please share it objectively so as to come to mutual understanding. Some call our church a ‘cult’ because we could be considered a cohesive social group that believes somewhat differently than mainstream Christianity. They do so with the intent to cast a negative image on the church. We are different from mainstream christianity– in that we believe in a modern prophet of God, called directly by Him like Abraham, Noah, and Moses. We believe in restored authority from God to act in His name. We believe that God revealed himself to various people on the earth throughout history besides the Jews and the followers of Christ in the area surrounding the Mediterranean Sea. One record of such a people is found in the Book of Mormon which relates the visit of the resurrected Christ to this people. So yes, in this sense we are different from mainstream Christianity, however, we still hold as our core beliefs what the Savior himself taught. And we strive to live in a Christ-like manner, serving, helping and lifting our fellow men. This is the type of person we would have been electing had Mitt Romney stayed in the presidential race– a person who strives to live the values that Jesus taught.


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